Comments for The Ground Zero mosque at http://www.thecatholicthing.org , comment 1 to 12 out of 12 comments http://www.thecatholicthing.org Tue, 21 May 2013 10:50:30 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/the-ground-zero-mosque.html#comment-5033 Maybe the group that wants to build the cultural center genuinely wants to promote peace and understanding, maybe not. If so, they were extremely naive to think it wouldn't be a deeply sensitive issue. For a contrast, look at how Pope John Paul II asked some Carmelite nuns to move their convent farther away from from Auschwitz out of sensitivity to the Jewish community who saw it as an encroachment. If they really wanted to build understanding, they could also help the parish of St. Nicholas Church raise funds to rebuild their church, which was flattened under one of the collapsing towers, and who have not been able to find any spot to rebuild within the city. I have to wonder, too, what sort of peace an initiative named "Cordoba" really hopes to build, given that Cordoba was the former seat of the caliphate in Spain, and a symbol of Islamic triumphalism over the West. Whether it is intentionally provocative or not, it is clearly insensitive. - Claire Corcoran Sat, 16 Oct 2010 01:51:18 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/the-ground-zero-mosque.html#comment-4779 You promote healing by going beyond the bare law, by showing sensitivity and generosity in concrete ways to those in legitimate and deep distress, which you claim to appreciate. So the relatives of people who died at Ground Zero, ought to be shown sensitivity and generosity in concrete ways - unless of course they're Muslims, in which case, diss them and their religion. Muslim emergency service workers risked their lives at Ground Zero: some died there. Ordinary New Yorkers who happened to work in the Twin Towers and were Muslim, died at Ground Zero. Thousands of Muslim Americans serve in the US military. Now people are attacking their fellow Americans for their religion, and you have the chutzpah to say the people being attacked are just not showing enough "sensitivity and generosity"? Matt: Where are all the Muslims who take great strides in promoting peace for all around them, regardless of stigma or suffering? Where is the willingness to promote peace and understanding on whatever scale is allowed them? The Sufi Muslims who are building the Cordoba Center - the community center at Park51, falsely described as the "Ground Zero Mosque", even though it's not a mosque and is a couple of blocks from where the WTC used to be. They're building this community center as a gesture of peace, a community center for lower Manhattan, open to all. For which they're getting kicked in the face by Christian Americans. ofserdesade: the historical fact that members of that group then built nearby a place of worship No, they didn't. The Muslims building the Cordoba Community Center are Sufis - and are American property developers. The al-Qaeda group who flew the planes into the WTC were Sunni Muslims, were mostly Saudis, none were Americans, and were AFAIK none of them property developers with any interest in building public community centers open to the general public, regardless of faith. To call them the "same group" would be like saying that the Quakers are the same group as the Westboro Baptist Church, and that a Quaker building a community center with a Meeting House ought to be stopped because Fred Phelps demonstrates outside US soldiers funerals and they're both Christians so they're all "the same group". Sufis are not Sunnis. American property developers are not al-Qaeda. This is really ridiculous. - Jesurgislac Fri, 27 Aug 2010 14:39:16 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/the-ground-zero-mosque.html#comment-4769 While Dr. Royal is undoubtedly correct that it's amazing how little anti-Muslim prejudice there's been since 9/11, the kind of images coming from New York these last couple of weeks are disturbing. The mosque protesters holding up signs with 'SHARIA' written in blood play much more easily into the narrative Osama and Co. want to peddle to their trainees than a westernized Imam running the Muslim equivalent of a YMCA (before it dropped embarrassing latter three letters early this year) -- all this around the corner from several 'ground zero' strip clubs. The story we are creating -- as these images of hostility are beamed across Al-Jazerra -- is likely to be much more powerful than any attempts by jihadists to claim they have 'planted a flag' at Ground Zero. That narrative would have been a stretch, but now I'm afraid the angry protesters have played right into their hands by casting this as a great clash of civilizations. - Lewis Fri, 27 Aug 2010 09:49:46 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/the-ground-zero-mosque.html#comment-4745 What I find really ironic among the supporters of this mosque is their zeal to have it built and their invocation of religious liberty to do so while at the same time forgetting that 1) religious liberty is a gift of the very Christian civilization whose Founder said "Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto God what is God's") that they wish to relativize into irrelevance; 2) Sharia law in Islam is the real threat to religious liberty not Christianity; and 3) they don't extend the same religious liberty to the Greek Orthodox trying to rebuild a church destroyed on 9/11/01. - Sam Tue, 24 Aug 2010 19:16:15 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/the-ground-zero-mosque.html#comment-4743 Suppose we turn the tables for just a moment. Imagine ourselves attempting to establish a Catholic Mission in another country, only to find that some Protestant group has committed horrific acts in that same region. Would we, as faithful Christians, respond by simply declaring our differences from that group, criticizing our opponents then forging ahead with our plans to build? Or would we rather follow our prime directive of Charity toward all people, working to give evidence of our good intentions by caring for people on whatever scale afforded to us in that location? I believe we would take whatever toehold was offered us and immediately edify our cause with good works and manifest faith, all the while pointing to the body of evidence around the world that shows the benefits provided by the Church to the communities she visits. After all, we strive to imitate Christ and the early fathers of the Church, who achieved His mission with no buildings, no monuments and frightfully little public goodwill toward them. That is the problem here: where is the body of evidence to suggest the good faith of "moderate Islam"? Where are all the Muslims who take great strides in promoting peace for all around them, regardless of stigma or suffering? Where is the willingness to promote peace and understanding on whatever scale is allowed them? - Matt Tue, 24 Aug 2010 08:07:27 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/the-ground-zero-mosque.html#comment-4742 Lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi. As we pray, so we believe, so we live. When you believe in a hateful, violent, destructive god, you lead hateful, violent, destructive lives, and produce a hateful, violent, destructive culture. Cult; culture-- the same root: prayer and worship form culture. Applying the law of non-contradiction, it seems to me that we need ask only one question: Is Jesus who he said He is (the incarnate Son of God) or was Jesus who Mohammed said he was (merely a prophet). Only one of these can be true. Therefore, one of them is a lie. What more does anyone need to know? - Maggie Tue, 24 Aug 2010 04:53:12 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/the-ground-zero-mosque.html#comment-4741 what's missing is a bit of historionic preshadowing: in many years time, the arguments about tolerance/intolerance will be forgotten. what will be remembered is that a group of people crashed a plane into a big building killing thousands. the choice is whether to add to that the historical fact that members of that group then built nearby a place of worship (by then it will or will not include a library and community center - who knows, it may even have a sharia bank inside called twin towers banking) to comemorate their deed (positive or negative connotations in the eyes of the beholder). it's like calling pius-12 a saint: who cares?! it's nobody's business but the church's. wrong! only in many centuries time will it be said that the catholic church had nothing to do with the hollocaust (something both JP2 & B16 have asked forgiveness for) - how could they have: their representative at the time was "a saint"... - oferdesade Tue, 24 Aug 2010 01:51:59 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/the-ground-zero-mosque.html#comment-4739 "What is it about Islam, that makes, molds, grows and manifests mad, radical, fanatic and insanely eccentric and murderous human misfits?" The same thing that produces all human misfits-sin. The surprise at the existence of human misfits is stranger then human misfits, even Islamic ones. - jason taylor Mon, 23 Aug 2010 14:41:27 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/the-ground-zero-mosque.html#comment-4736 I believe that the existential Islamic phenomenon throughout the world is one of insidious, perfidious, deceitful and frightening proportions...tops (perhaps) of all great worldly dangers. What is it about Islam, that makes, molds, grows and manifests mad, radical, fanatic and insanely eccentric and murderous human misfits? What is it? It surely is "something" inherently profound and inducing within the context of the Koran (Quoran). What is it? If this is truly a "peacful religion," no such breakdown in human deceny could or would happen. If such a default is in the Koran, then it must be removed--extracted--absolutely, completely and for sure forever. Then...maybe the "religion part" of Islam can blend into the realm of human decenly, goodness and Godliness, with caring concern, honor, merciful love toward the salubrious well-being of humanity (maybe). That's partly how I feel. As of right now, I consider Islam, (along with homosexuality and abortion rationalities) to be one of the most dangerous and frightening conditions our troubled humanity. - Robert Ormsbee Mon, 23 Aug 2010 12:37:23 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/the-ground-zero-mosque.html#comment-4733 Muslims tell us that there is no distinction for them between religion and politics, between Islam and government. They are all one. So why don't we frame the debate from the political side of the equation, thinking of Islam as a governing body. Do we want a foreign political, military, legal organization to set up shop as a governing institution on our soil (which is pretty much what we have now in the various mosques and Muslim settlements around the U.S.) We can then see "radical Islam", AKA "militant Islam" for what it is, the military arm of that government, being anywhere from 1% to 10% of those "who just want to live their lives", just as we have all the peace-loving citizens 'who just want to lead their lives", and we have our "militant Americans", also known as the Army, Air Force, Navy, and Marines. Political correctness will be the death of us all, yet. - Maggie Mon, 23 Aug 2010 10:08:13 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/the-ground-zero-mosque.html#comment-4732 Fortunately the debate is probably academic. The supporters of the mosque are basically just real estate developers who became stuck with a ground zero property that, after the crash of 2008, can't be developed into condos as they had planned. This whole mosque idea is just a desperate gimmick to attract financing to get out from under the bldgs. They only own one of the two lots necessary for the project. Even assuming they can acquire the next door con edison bldg what then? To date, these clowns have raised a grand total (get this) of $18,000 of the necessary $100 million to build the project. Besides, they have no architect and no engineer and good luck finding reputable firms to take on something this controversial. The whole issue makes for great conversation fodder. But the overwhelming likelihood is that no mosque will ever be built. There's simply no money for this project apart from whatever one thinks of Islam! - Pete brown Mon, 23 Aug 2010 07:36:42 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/the-ground-zero-mosque.html#comment-4730 Good piece, Robert. At last count there are more than 100 mosques in NYC (all 5 boroughs) and, considering the location of this one and its size -- 13 stories -- no justification for placing a mosque in a downtown commercial area where few Muslims live. However, once built it would become a magnet for the potential jihadists and others on the growing radical fringe and provide yet another base for terrorist activity. More than anything, this is Rauf's "in your face" insult to NYC and America by taking advantage of ordinances that Islam condemns and would overturn with Sharia law if they had their way. So, what's next? A Japanese Shinto shrine near Pearl Harbor? Yet, I know of a man who owns private property who has been denied town and county permission to build a Bible camp because it does not meet zoning ordinances that define such a project as "recreational use." The case has sparked a federal lawsuit under the federal RLUIPA ( Religious Land Use and Institutionalized Persons Act) that prohibits the imposition of burdens on the ability of prisoners to worship as they please, as well as giving churches and other religious institutions a way to avoid burdensome zoning law restrictions on their property use. "Freedom of Religion," as Obama touts, may apply here; however, under RLUIPA, government has wiggle room because many plaintiffs have lost cases over this provision: "No government shall impose or implement a land use regulation in a manner that imposes a substantial burden on the religious exercise of a person, including a religious assembly or institution, unless the government can demonstrate that imposition of the burden on that person, assembly or institution 1. is in furtherance of a compelling governmental interest; and 2. is the least restrictive means of furthering that compelling governmental interest." What this means is that "freedom of religion," or "freedom of speech" is not absolute. And if a "compelling governmental interest" can be shown in disallowing the mosque, i.e., "threat to national security," or whatever a smart lawyer can dream up, then there is a LEGAL basis to attempt to block this application. The challenge for U.S. prosecutors is to link Rauf to supporting and sponsoring terrorist activities, which shouldn't be all that difficult given his public anti-America rhetoric. It's just a matter of connecting the dots. However, under a U.S. Attorney General who is suing a state for enforcing federal law, the idea of challenging the mosque on legal grounds is prosperous on its face in the eyes of the Left and the current administration, which panders to all manner of minorities in the name of "freedom." - Joe Mon, 23 Aug 2010 05:32:10 +0100