Comments for Reformation Day and Schism at http://www.thecatholicthing.org , comment 1 to 23 out of 20 comments http://www.thecatholicthing.org Wed, 22 May 2013 13:53:28 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/reformation-day-and-schism.html#comment-6364 I once heard a methodist minister say how proud he was of the 350 year history of his denomination, and then go on to disparage the "fly-by-night" type churches that just seem to spring up out of nowhere. I wasn't even Catholic then, and I had the uncomfortable thought that he was completely ignoring history. I sat in the pew that day thinking, "I bet I know several Catholics who would be willing to argue with him." I was never a Protestant who tried to argue that the Catholic church was not the "mother" ship, so to speak. And now, I have left my Protestant life-raft in favor of the protection of the "mother" ship, the Catholic Church. But I still remember that sermon of that Methodist minister, and I wonder how he could have just ignored 1600 years of history. - Judi Beauford Mon, 21 Mar 2011 20:00:42 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/reformation-day-and-schism.html#comment-5853 One of the finest articles Ive read. That quote from CArl Trueman is outstanding and refreshingly honest. - Javier Wed, 26 Jan 2011 22:06:23 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/reformation-day-and-schism.html#comment-5225 I read the book review you linked at the end, and am completely taken aback by the author's clarity of thought and the admissions he makes regarding the poverty of the evangelical movement/ protestantism. It is the same set of admissions that led me to the Catholic Church (from confessional protestantism) because in my mind it left protestantism without a leg to stand on, and effectively removed any pedestal from which to judge the Catholic Church, leaving as the only option grateful submission. Well, I am glad at least that it led you to face that momentous question and we couldn't be happier with the path you chose. Thank you for your thoughtful approach to the 'great divide,' always of interest to me. God bless you and your family. - Sarah Sun, 07 Nov 2010 16:07:17 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/reformation-day-and-schism.html#comment-5148 "Grace" was entirely correct with her remarks on Luther and the 95 Theses. As a former Catholic (and my parents didn't disapprove of my leaving the church), I came to a realization on my own regarding the heresies within the Catholic Church; long before I came to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ as my savior and Lord. So many things didn't sit right, and I was a product of Catholic schools for most of my growing-up years, as were my siblings and parents. Mom and Dad even went to Catholic colleges.Reasons for waking up and leaving the church included: Teachings on the praying to saints, relics, and statues; no reading of the Bible at Catholic schools; praying the rosary; transubstantiation; the supposed infallibility of the Pope....and the list goes on. The following, sent out by a Catholic friend, illustrates what was my final reason to leave the Catholic church forever. The final nail in the coffin that sealed my decision was the heretical view that you can pray for the dead. An email received today about the church's "dead talk"-- Happy All Saints Day, Just a reminder.From the 1st to the 8th of November if you visit a cemetery everyday and say a prayer for the souls in purgatory,they can receive a plenary Indulgence,and you can get 8 more Saints into Heaven.[Under the usual conditions [Confession,Mass.Communion and Prayers for the Pope within 8 days before or after] We have so many treasures in Our Church. **To which I would say, "heresy of heresies!" Every day for me is Reformation Day, and I'll be forever indebted to the men and women today who continue in the tradition to teach and preach reformed doctrine which is fully supported by the Holy Scriptures---much like Calvin, Luther, Zwingli, and Huss. Today we are blessed with Ligonier Ministries (RC Sproul), Revive Our Hearts (Nancy Leigh DeMoss), John MacArthur, John Piper, the professors at Westminster Seminaries---to name a few. Sola Gloria!!! - Katherine Mon, 01 Nov 2010 11:53:42 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/reformation-day-and-schism.html#comment-5147 Thank you Mr. Beckwith. I love learning what it is like living life as a protestant. As a cradle Catholic it's easy to imagine all kinds of hardships for the adult convert, but these thoughts are always "imaginings". My mother also is a convert, so I've always known and don't care who is offended with my belief that converts make better Catholics. Of course, my dad was not too fond of the saying! - JamesTheLesser Mon, 01 Nov 2010 07:22:27 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/reformation-day-and-schism.html#comment-5144 Wonder what recent Catholic thought is on the prohibition of Bible translations in the vernacular. I consider William Tyndale one of the most important heroes of English Christendom, yet he was strangled and burned for daring to teach the ploughboy the words of God. - Jim Woychuk Sun, 31 Oct 2010 18:44:34 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/reformation-day-and-schism.html#comment-5142 Jeannie; Quit trying to be so subtle! Just come out with it and tell us what you REALLY think about the Catholic Church. - Billy Bean Sun, 31 Oct 2010 11:28:27 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/reformation-day-and-schism.html#comment-5141 Jesus taught, "My kingdom is within." That is the ONLY kingdom, which the Gates of Hell cannot come against, and it comprises members from all denominations, who know Christ as their Lord and Savior. The Catholic Church may claim Papal Succession, but that is questionable claim, based upon the simple facts of history, which have shown that Papal Succession is ONLY physical succession and not always spiritual succession. There have been some really slimy characters over the centuries, who were made Popes. It doesn't take a theologian to know that the Holy Spirit did not reside in men, the likes of Pope Leo X, who was sinfully extravagant and licentious. He threw the Vatican into near bankruptcy, and it was his abusive Sale of Indulgences, which most rankled Martin Luther. God is not mocked. For centuries the Catholic Church has covered up sins of Priest Pedophilia. Those sins are being exposed today. For centuries the Catholic Church persecuted the Jews, not only in the Inquisitions but in Pogroms in Eastern Europe and expulsions in Spain and Portugal in the 1500's. Now, intelligent, well-read people are beginning to question how the Holy Spirit was working in the Papacies of those Popes. The obvious answer is, "He wasn't!" The Vatican's sins are usually based upon arrogance and upon GREED. Now, in the newspapers, all around the world, we are seeing the 2nd Vatican Bank Scandal in less than 30 years, and we are seeing Jonathan Levy sue the Vatican for the Victims of the Holocaust for Her troves of Nazi Gold. Again, God is not mocked! Maybe "The Great Millstone" which St. John predicted in the Book of Revelation (18 chapter) is starting to fall upon that great, apostate Church, "built on 7 hills!" When it happens, the world will know, "God is NOT mocked," even by the Catholic Church. - JeannieGuzman Sun, 31 Oct 2010 07:48:17 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/reformation-day-and-schism.html#comment-5140 Thank you for writing this, Francis. I came into the Church in 2007 as well, and being raised hardcore Lutheran, I have many memories of celebrating Reformation Day at church. (sadly it usually resulted in a Catholic and pope bashing session) Your statement that "whichever I chose, the decision would change the trajectory of my life" especially hit me because I was in the exact same situation. I knew that choosing to become Catholic would tear apart my family and lead to persecution, but knew that I couldn't live a pretend Protestant life. Thank you again for this article and keep up the good work! God bless+ - Rebecca Sun, 31 Oct 2010 06:34:49 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/reformation-day-and-schism.html#comment-5139 What drove me from the Catholic church was the inability of Church teaching that would help me realize that a person is saved by faith in Christ's sacrifice. Oh, they DID reference the crucifixion and resurrection, but not in any saving way or, at least, some way that made sense. When you add to that oversight the added on, and definitely NON scriptural, belief that Mary is a co-redemptress and did not suffer death, but was "assumed" into heaven, then you bolt the door behind anyone who might be inclined to "re-join" the so-called "only true church". When they disavow those damnable heresies (originated by papal decree, NOT by scripture)then the door will be unbolted and allow entry to many who would call the Catholic church home. By the way, Jesus NEVER promoted a one organization body of believers, just one flock overseen by the Good Shepherd. - Oscar Sun, 31 Oct 2010 04:25:07 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/reformation-day-and-schism.html#comment-5138 Reformation Sunday, for one in particular, is indeed a day to celebrate. For one this day revivals his other, almost lesser, victory, that of giving Eve the apple in the Garden. - Michael McCleary Sun, 31 Oct 2010 03:19:36 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/reformation-day-and-schism.html#comment-5137 Sorry, that the majority of these comments miss the mark and fail to address what Professor Beckwith has commented! I believe the latest count, is over 30,000 Protestant denominations. Congrats to Luther! I am sure, that which Christ had foreseen, was anyone, at anytime, creating their own denomination! We have become the creator! Whatever we think is right, is right! Let's all become our own "GURU"! I no longer follow Luther, Calvin, or any other "Reformer"! As the supply of new "Reformers" are endless! John 6:53 NIV(For the Evangelicals and Fundamentalists) Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you." - John Hughes Sat, 30 Oct 2010 19:42:05 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/reformation-day-and-schism.html#comment-5134 Billy Bean-Of course it wasn't real Christianity. My use of quotation marks was not meant to imply that, but to make it clear. Nevertheless, historically, there was plenty of anti-Jewish propaganda that did not need to be twisted to be rendered hateful. It was hateful on its own. Luther was part of that unfortunate heritage, and, sadly, he was not alone. - Charlotte Sat, 30 Oct 2010 11:46:19 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/reformation-day-and-schism.html#comment-5133 Charlotte: I did not write off the influence of "Christian" anti-Judaism with regard to the Nazis. They were quite capable of twisting and exploiting anything to advance the Third Reich. But twisted and perverted "Christianity" is NOT, in fact, Christianity, a fact which you implicitly acknowledge by your use of quotation marks. - Billy Bean Sat, 30 Oct 2010 09:02:10 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/reformation-day-and-schism.html#comment-5132 Yes, Mark, but you see, even though the very concept of "denomination" is rooted in the sectarian tendencies of the first apostolic Christians (1 Cor, 1:10-16), this makes it no less sinful. There is, indeed, one Holy Catholic Apostolic Church, to which all who are being saved are in fact united. The Church is an objective thing, and one is either in it or not. That being said, there are some people who were once strongly united to the Church but are becoming more disunited to her every day, while there are others who are currently not a part of her, but are drawing closer to her every day. It seems to me that you see the Church as an invisible Ideal (or maybe even "Idea"), and not the continuous historical (and transcendent) Body of Christ. Indeed, the Body is no less historical, singular, and transcendent than the Head. The sheep are indeed scattered, but there is nonethess one Shepherd and one Sheepfold. - Billy Bean Sat, 30 Oct 2010 07:26:48 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/reformation-day-and-schism.html#comment-5131 Mark K.: We agree that the Bride of Christ has nothing to do with denomination. The Catholic Church isn't a denomination. Billy Bean:You shouldn't write off the influence of "Christian" anti-Judaism on Nazi ideology. Granted, the Nazis were anti-Christian, but they had a rich history of hateful "Christian" propaganda that they were happy to make use of. - Charlotte Sat, 30 Oct 2010 05:31:17 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/reformation-day-and-schism.html#comment-5129 Strange that the writer went back to the Catholic Church because it's, in his mind, the default church and because it has been historically stable. He desired what he thought was biblical unity so he went back to catholicism and walked that line. His conclusion seems well off base to me but I suppose that's the result of our disagreement on a very base level. Where we are divided is, I don't think the true Bride of Christ has anything to do with denomination. While division is inherently against the nature of the Bride, the churches we know today are also against that same nature, attempting to define, in finite terms, an unfathomable God and hold the unrepentant in good standing before the Lord through deed, doctrine and sacrament all the while losing strength and focus. We'll find in every church both carnal Christians and true believers, something outside the biblical definition of the Church. The holy, spotless Bride of Christ is not represented by these divisions but rather by those who have been reconciled to God through His grace and have been transformed by the Holy Spirit. The body of believers is scattered in the pews and scattered across denominations. We don't find them alone by any means but no church, and unfortunately the Catholic Church is included, represents biblical unity. The remnant is what represents the Bride. So, what he claims as a downfall, the picking and choosing of a suitable faith and searching out churches outside Catholicism, has nothing to do with division in the true Church. He's right, I'm not about to choose my faith, my belief, like a pair of well fitting pants. I won't choose at all beyond the Word and the Spirit and that only by the grace of the Father. My fellowship remains a joyous part of this walk and where that happens is an association but I would never lay claim to a church. The very unity he desired in returning and claiming the Catholic Church is his chosen division. - Mark K Sat, 30 Oct 2010 03:58:58 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/reformation-day-and-schism.html#comment-5127 Wow -- these comments and critiques are twisted. Martin Luther was a brave awesome man following the lead of the Holy Spirit, as it inspired him thru the scriptures, which is the Word of God. Try opening the Bible and reading it. The Bible fully supported the 95 theses. Martin Luther did not wish to seperate from the Catholic church but rather reform the church, but the church threatened his life and he had no choice but to stand with intregity for his faith. Thank God for Martin Luther or the Catholic Church would have died in it's utter corruption, following the leadership of man rather than God and His Word. - Grace Fri, 29 Oct 2010 19:52:55 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/reformation-day-and-schism.html#comment-5125 Luther's "anti-semitism" was, in fact, a credal, and not a racial matter, as with the Nazis. So James's historical observation is not helpful. Darwin is the better historical reference for Hitler's inspiration. That being said, Beckwith's point is well taken: the historical church of Christ is, in fact, not "Protestant," but very much what we would call "Catholic/Orthodox." - Billly Bean Fri, 29 Oct 2010 15:48:15 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/reformation-day-and-schism.html#comment-5123 Once a break with the "church" is undertaken by an individual relying on his or her understanding, there is nothing to prevent further fractioning off by other individuals - as history shows. The sad little irony/paradox at the center of Luther's project was the building up of a Protestant church. If scripture is the ultimate source authority, there is no need for a church. In that sense, his opinions on scriptural interpretation are equal to anyone else's. Ah ... so is relativism born into the world. Much human suffering has resulted from attempts to reform systems in order to "fix" human nature rather than reforming individuals. All modern utopiasts promise an end to "corruption" by systemic means rather than by focusing on behavior. Such gnostic self-righteousness smells faintly of the sin of pride. It has become the norm in politics. - Other Joe Fri, 29 Oct 2010 09:26:56 +0100