Comments for A Defense of “Organized” Religion at http://www.thecatholicthing.org , comment 1 to 8 out of 8 comments http://www.thecatholicthing.org Fri, 24 May 2013 07:56:28 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/a-defense-of-organized-religion.html#comment-5356 I believe that many, especially Protestants, would submit that salvation is personal. It is between God and the individual. It involves accepting Jesus and talking directly to God without the interference of middlemen. This seems to allow the comforts of religion (spirituality) with none of the bother. The Catholic Church has not well expressed the very compelling counterpoints, which, as noted above, were emasculated by the hiding away of sin and hell. If the hiding away was intended to refill the churches, it hasn’t worked. - Other Joe Sun, 28 Nov 2010 03:03:56 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/a-defense-of-organized-religion.html#comment-5355 I'm a bit surprised with all the talk of disunity above and no mention of the recent surge in unity. Five Anglican bishops aren't merely leaving the Church of England but joining the Church of Rome. The Cross of St. George as a symbol of 21st Century Christian unity may well be God at His most humorous. The Church has 22 rites plus the new Anglican Use liturgy. I've had the pleasure of attending at least six different rites of the Church (Southeastern Michigan is home to all 22 rites) and they may look and sound different but the theology is the same. Wasn't it Chesterton who said that orthodoxy is the only true diversity? Please correct me if I'm wrong. God does allow us to choose -- and at some point we have to. The Sacraments and the Magesterium are not side dishes on the cultural menu of Hollywood or academia or the media. Otherwise an act of contrition is meaningless. - Graham Combs Sat, 27 Nov 2010 19:54:01 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/a-defense-of-organized-religion.html#comment-5354 In fact, the foremost critical commentator on Matthew (dale allison, a protestant) holds both that Matt 16:16=18 is an expansion from Mark and is also an authentic saying of Jesus. In fact he also thinks the minimalistic interpretation you referenced is special pleading. The traditional Catholic rendering of this verse can and must come to terms with critical scholarship on the gospels in general. - Pete brown Sat, 27 Nov 2010 18:25:43 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/a-defense-of-organized-religion.html#comment-5353 Great article and great responses. To understand why so much has become unclear is to understand Vatican II. The progressive "Catholics" quietly removed Hell. Everyone is therefore saved. This is a heresy of course, so they must do this quietly. In 1917, three children were shown a vision of Hell by the Virgin Mary to remind EVERYONE that it exists. It still does with the SSPX and the FSSP and other Traditional groups, and that is why they will endure. Without this belief, other Catholics will become members of Catholic(?) sects and denominations and slide down the slippery slope. Evidence of this is all around us every day. - Bill Sat, 27 Nov 2010 11:15:40 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/a-defense-of-organized-religion.html#comment-5351 Howard, I fervently hope it is still there. And, I will add this: Despite my reservations about Catholic unity, I still admire the Church for "sticking to its principles," however unpopular among some who calls themselves members. It seems to me that if you disagree with dogmatic teachings, you can always find refuge elsewhere. So far I have no found another "rock" as strong as the Church, but there are so many yet to be discovered in this vast cosmos. - James Fri, 26 Nov 2010 13:43:09 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/a-defense-of-organized-religion.html#comment-5350 To James: Maybe we can agree that most of the divergent opinions you cite stem from dissent from the papal encyclical on contraception. (I published an article on this in The New Oxford Review in Sept. 2009.) But the Church certainly takes on the characteristics of a rock, as it still stands unperturbed by that dissent or opinion polls. As far as baptism of infants is concerned, that makes one a Christian, not necessarily a Catholic. How "indelible" the mark is, I'm not sure. It's probably still there down deep, don't you think? - Howard Kainz Fri, 26 Nov 2010 11:02:52 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/a-defense-of-organized-religion.html#comment-5349 Orthodox Catholics are not divided. I thank God everyday for the rock of the Catholic Church which protects and promulgates the faith established by Jesus Christ. God help us if we allow public opinion polls to shape the Church!! - Alana LaPerle Fri, 26 Nov 2010 07:21:09 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2010/a-defense-of-organized-religion.html#comment-5348 Well done, professor, in pointing out the "multiple divisions and denominations among non-Catholics," but could it not be said that Catholics are nearly as divided? First, which is the "One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic" Church -- the Four Marks that are claimed both by Rome and the East? That is a huge divide that remains after some 17 centuries since the First Council of Constantinople revised the Nicene Creed. Perhaps Kipling was right about east never meeting west, and clearly this theological hurdle goes to the central point of which authority -- Roman Catholicism vs. Eastern Orthodox -- is the true Rock. Then there are numerous other divisions within Catholicism over doctrinal issues. British Catholics, for example, in a recent poll disagree strongly with official doctrinal views on social and ethical issues. Only 6 percent agreed abortion is not permissible under any circumstance and 11 per cent believed it should only be permitted as an indirect consequence of life-saving treatment. On homosexuality, only 11 per cent agreed with the Church’s perspective that 'homosexual acts' were morally wrong. On artificial contraception, just 4 per cent of respondents agreed with the Church’s official view that artificial forms of contraception should not be used, with 71 per cent of those questioned answering that condoms should be used more often. (This poll was taken before Pope Benedict's latest comments on condom use, which are clearly being misinterpreted by many as a liberalizing of Humanae Vitae). Britain is but a microcosm on conception. Catholic Auxiliary Bishop Joseph M. Sullivan acknowledged in a 2002 speech, "large sectors of the Catholic population disagree with church teaching on contraception." On other matters, there also are widely divergent views within the Catholic Community about the Charismatic Movement, celibacy, the death penalty, etc., etc. So, what of the "organization" of the Church, which seems so disorganized? It's like the character in a movie who was asked about "organized crime," and he responded, "believe me, it's not so organized." Just one question, Professor. I was baptized as an infant as a Catholic and have since fallen into the "cafeteria" category picking and choosing from which Church doctrine to accept. The question is, "Once Catholic, always Catholic?" - James Fri, 26 Nov 2010 04:49:18 +0100