Comments for Things Fell Apart at http://www.thecatholicthing.org , comment 1 to 38 out of 20 comments http://www.thecatholicthing.org Sat, 18 May 2013 20:30:13 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/things-fell-apart.html#comment-5955 As a cradle, post Vatican-2 Catholic, I can't and won't comment on pre-Vatican II doctrine What I do object to, as someone who has been involved in church activities more or less all their life, is the 'anyone born post Vatican 2 doesn't have a clue" attitude No, the post Vatican 2 Catholic church is not a 'pick and mix'. The key tenets of the faith are there, deep and strong. Not all of us like choosing what we believe, we are Catholic, the church has rules, we abide by them. Pro-choice is abhorrent to me, as is the selfishness of modern society I consider myself tolerant, I would ask those in the Catholic communion who have experienced both sides of the Council to appreciate that there are many like myself who are not 'fly-by-nights' or superficial in their faith After all, who's to say that all these problems weren't there before and Vatican 2, by letting the Holy Spirit in, showed the cobwebs in the corners in their true light? - Clare, Wirrral Sun, 06 Feb 2011 23:34:06 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/things-fell-apart.html#comment-5683 Only blame the clergy, of course not...but I stand by the comment. The Church cannot be strong and widespread without a strong, united clergy. That is no denigration of the lay state nor is it letting laity off the hook. It's just the way Christ designed the Church. - Other Louise Wed, 12 Jan 2011 20:26:57 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/things-fell-apart.html#comment-5666 I do not think we can simply blame the Ordained from the Church of '55. Now as then, laymen must accept responsibility for their own formation and the deepening of their own interior life. - Austin Ruse Wed, 12 Jan 2011 02:07:57 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/things-fell-apart.html#comment-5665 The Church in the 50's in the US was strong, believe it or not. There was a beautiful sense of unity. It was also childlike and was trained to do what Father said. When Father started saying the wrong things, it all fell apart. It was a sheep without a shephard scenario, just like Jesus said. when the shepherd is struck, the sheep scatter. Thus to me the secret is the reinvigoration of the priesthood. When priests become united once again around the papacy, the sheep will eventually too. - Other Loiuse Wed, 12 Jan 2011 00:42:47 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/things-fell-apart.html#comment-5642 Late me restate what I tried to note above. In answer to severe challenges from the secular point of view in the 50's, the church (too often) offered legalism, fear and abstractions. I think it is safe to agree with Mr. Ruse that the shepherds were weak in their understanding of their duties and the flock was scattered as a result when frights and storms came. It speaks of a crisis in faith among the ordained. An important Anglican bishop in the 1960s confided to an acquaintance of mine that he no longer believed in God. I suspect there were many others and not a few in the Catholic hierarchy. The bishop remained in office as a kind of advocate for "nice", paying hypocritical respects to the divinity he no longer believed existed. He had become a ceremonial figure and a stumbling block for the true believer. I believe one could point to many others – especially high profile “Catholic” politicians – who, to judge only by their actions, feel similarly - Other Joe Mon, 10 Jan 2011 07:50:21 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/things-fell-apart.html#comment-5638 Mr. Ruse, I agree with your comments. Is one key way that there was something amiss in '55 (and that is still too often amiss in 2011) the lack of clarity in Magisterial teaching? More specifically, is the Magisterium clear enough on what of its teaching is Revelation and what is not, infallible or not, a matter of doctrine or of prudential judgment? Should not the Magisterium more clearly state when its teaching is objectively true, and whether it is claiming so on the basis of Revelation/Faith or Reason? Does not the Magisterium need use terms like "formal heresy," "material heresy," and "apostasy" more often? - Martin Dybicz Mon, 10 Jan 2011 07:19:33 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/things-fell-apart.html#comment-5635 To answer the question, "how did the disaster happen", my first thought is "the world, the flesh, and the devil". After the war came the chasing of "THE AMERICAN DREAM" ($)- people moved from Catholic enclaves to the suburbs and further, leaving extended families and familiar parishes behind; TV commercials lauded the GE "Kitchen of the Future" and other goods and services people "could not live without"; TV soap operas showed other lifestyles, etc. With the GI Bill, many men were able to go to colleges where liberal professors espoused views contrary to Church teaching. Psychologists were advising people (including clergy and religious) to "find themselves" and that self-fulfillment was the highest good. God seemed to have an awful lot of competition for the hearts and minds of the Catholic Americans. And, I agree with Austin Ruse that there was not an internalized faith with many people - it was "here's what I have to do and not do so I won't go to hell". With Vatican II, I think many people got the idea the from then on, we were each supposed to decide what was right and wrong FOR US, based on our individual consciences - they left out the part about our responsibility to develop our consciences with the proper formation. The idea of lifelong learning - and a strong prayer life - got lost somewhere. There needs to be an understanding that God really means for us to have a good life and He has given us the Church to help us. But, in this current environment, we have to be willing to suffer for our beliefs. Suffering and Joy - the cross to the resurrection. - Sherry Sun, 09 Jan 2011 07:07:21 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/things-fell-apart.html#comment-5634 I also believe Vatican II was the Holy Spirit's way of making the Church more supple in order to survive the blows that were coming culture-wide in the 1960s and 1970s. Tis true Vatican II was hijacked by dissidents but there was enough there that the Church was saved from even greater disaster such as we have seen in the mainline ecclesial communities. - Austin Ruse Sun, 09 Jan 2011 05:01:58 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/things-fell-apart.html#comment-5633 A correction. It was in 2005 that I retired from publishing (not 1995), but for all those years we were producing college textbooks in the social sciences, especially but not exclusively, that were, to varying degrees, anti-Christian. - Louise Sun, 09 Jan 2011 01:34:25 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/things-fell-apart.html#comment-5632 Austin, within 10 years, EVERYTHING fell apart, not just in the Church. My own private conspiracy theory is that, when the UnAmerican Activities Committee folded, those blacklisted Communists and fellow travelers had to go somewhere to find work, and they found open arms on the faculties of colleges and universities, beginning just about that time. There, they were all in place to welcome the over-indulged and self-indulgent baby boomers who, already spoiled by war-weary parents eager to give them "everything that they never had, or that the children of Europe never had", were more than happy to play the part of the "useful idiots" in the Cold War. We all remember what 1968 was like. (The only non-left-leaning baby boomers that I know were those who did not go to college but found work in industry right out of high school. They escaped the indoctrination of the left.) The virus spread like wildfire, until, those of us who were married, say, in 1955 and had young children or just about to be teenagers, no longer recognized the country we loved. My first inkling was when my daughter came home one day from high school at Roosevelt High, in Seattle, and told me that Thomas Jefferson and the other Founding Fathers were evil, horrible people, and she hated them. That was about 1973, and I haven't recovered from the shock yet. It was down hill all the way from there. By the time I finished my career in publishing in 1995, I was returning manuscripts to the publisher, refusing to produce the anti-Christian diatribes coming from the pens of those PhD. professors who were writing college textbooks, calling themselves Marxists and incorporating themselves to protect their royalties. From this, the Church was not immune nor was it protected. You get the picture. Debbie, maybe someday. You never can tell. Thank you for the compliments and kind words. - Louise Sat, 08 Jan 2011 15:33:31 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/things-fell-apart.html#comment-5631 Though it is too late since folks are all warm and rosy about the '55 Church. Think about this. Within ten years it fell apart. The same people who packed the Church in '55, including priests and nuns and laity had fled or were just about to flee a mere handful of years later. I think there was something rotten already in the state of Denmark for this to have happened so rapidly. The thing about today is that folks have to make their faith their own. They almost have to fight for it. This is actually a blessing. I suspect there was a fair amount of spoon feeding in the '55 Church. - Austin Ruse Sat, 08 Jan 2011 11:11:27 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/things-fell-apart.html#comment-5629 Amen to Louise, Austin. I believe that is my point. So "my astute conclusion" (please, that is NJ tongue in cheek)is that Vat 2 was called by the Holy Spirit. What "we" did hence is not unprecedented in the Church: how many churches did St. Paul have to write to and correct? how old was the early church at that point? how many heresies sprang up before the Apostles were all dead? why is this so new? and the scariest question of all: are the hard-and-fast "my Pre-Vat 2 Church is the Only Catholic Church" believers the new Protestants? coming from Protestantism with all it's "the Holy Spirit told me" stuff, i must stay away from those proponents and leave them to God. He alone is our Judge. And, yes, this same disease (not repenting of our own sins and doing the hard work of changing) has indeed infected all Faiths. Abortion and infidelity are rampant even in the far right wing Protestant churches. This is not something to rejoice over. We live in a sick world and those of us with the only Remedy don't look anything like Him. this is SIN. Louise, my Spiritual Director for over 10 years who greatly impacted my whole being was born and raised in Poland. My SD prior to him was a priest from Spain who wore a cassock in 100+ degree weather. Prior to him, my SD was a beautiful holy (now hermit) priest who was baptized, 1st Confession & Communion by St. Padre Pio, & moved to America at 9 years old. Holy priests exist! Thanks be to God, He has always provided me with a Fr. to help me along! Funny tho, none of the above ever emphasized the idea that what IS wrong in the Church is anything or anyone other than, "look at Your sins, Debby." and, i'd love to help shovel your drive as long as hot tea follows with me picking your mind and heart! i can't wait for Heaven and hanging forever with Him and all of you.... - debby Sat, 08 Jan 2011 06:44:43 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/things-fell-apart.html#comment-5628 Martin, I have that book on my shelf, but I read it several years ago before I could really appreciate it. It's time for another reading. Above, I described the vigorously faithful parish we attend. I can add that our pastor is not appreciated by his fellow clergy who, although they like him, tend to think of him as an artifact. The fact that his church is full on Sunday and almost full on weekdays, that he baptizes more babies and hears more confessions than they do, never disturbs their thoughts. In the 20 years he has been there, Mass has been celebrated every single day without exception, either by him or a substitute, no layman has ever preached a homily from the pulpit, and no girl has ever served at the altar. Neither of those novelties has brought on fallen-away Catholic back to the Church. It is the shepherd who gathers the sheep. They do not gather themselves. - Louise Sat, 08 Jan 2011 04:29:16 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/things-fell-apart.html#comment-5627 Martin et al, Yes, those things really hurt. BUT, a strong faith would have withstood them! The faith of '55 should never have been undermined by teh unfaith of '68 unless there was something complacent or somehow sand-like in the faith of '55. I hold that things were not all that solid in '55. - Austin Ruse Sat, 08 Jan 2011 04:13:06 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/things-fell-apart.html#comment-5625 In case anyone's still reading this thread, the answer to "How did it happen?" is masterfully provided in George Weigel's 2002 book, "The Courage To Be Catholic." Here are some subtitles: "The 'Truce of 1968,'" "Dissent among Theologians," "The 'Wounded Healer' Syndrome," "The Triumphant Therapeutic," and "On Not Appearing 'Conservative.'" Weigel also provides an agenda for reform that all of our bishops would do well to heed. - Martin Dybicz Sat, 08 Jan 2011 02:46:34 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/things-fell-apart.html#comment-5624 Within a few short years after VII the 50's church was emptied out. A strong foundation would not have crumbled over night. - Austin Ruse Fri, 07 Jan 2011 17:11:52 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/things-fell-apart.html#comment-5623 "p.s. Louise, i've said this before: please adopt me! i think we are "related...." " I'd love to, Debbie. How are you at shoveling snow? We have a 700 ' driveway (all down hill going out; up hill coming home). plus the flat between house and garage, plus the path to the barn, and sometimes around the barn so that the sheep can get out. We could have some lovely conversations that would benefit us both. - Louise Fri, 07 Jan 2011 13:15:45 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/things-fell-apart.html#comment-5619 I am grateful that people responded to my question. Austin said in 3 sentences what I was expressing in 300+ words. p.s. to Lindsay, my comments were directed at the readers not the author of the article. i agree with most all your points. p.s to ray- we cannot climb out of these holes ourselves. it is the Shepherd Himself Who bends down and lifts us up. don't worry. He's a great Rescuer. look how He continued to pursue you, into your "vintage." same rescuing going on with an 80+ year old beloved aunt of mine. Thank you, LORD! p.s. Louise, i've said this before: please adopt me! i think we are "related...." - debby Fri, 07 Jan 2011 07:13:34 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/things-fell-apart.html#comment-5615 I read this column early this morning and have been busy until a little while ago. I returned to the site and was surprised to see so many comments. I read them all and, although it is late to be offering a comment I felt compelled to comment on the depth and eloquence of the many fine thoughts that were posted this day. Mr. Shaw's writing obviously hit a nerve with many. I would offer one thought. I am a 71-year-old convert of recent vintage. I grew up in a family that was not particularly religious (Protestant once in a while) but I have fond memories of watching Fulton J Sheen on television as a teenager. The ideal described in some of the posts as well as Mr. Shaw's piece was not unique to Catholics. That ideal was pervasive in the American people. It was part of the American culture and it respected tradition, decorum and the search for truth. It honored civility and manners. Norman Rockwell painted American life as it was. Look at his work again. Those scenes are what I remember. Catholics, Protestants, Jews and the unchurched all lost their way at about the same time. I sense that we as a people are slowly but surely climbing out of the hole we dug ourselves. I pray I am right. - Ray Hunkins Thu, 06 Jan 2011 17:19:46 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/things-fell-apart.html#comment-5614 I'm one of the over-sixty gang who can testify that, while there was no perfection among humans in the Church, the Faith and Piety of those who loved our Lord and Holy Mother Church was deep and sincere. My Irish grandmother, who was almost completely self-educated, understood the Catholic Faith better than most graduates of so-called Catholic colleges today. This did not happen by accident. This watering down of CCD and, the vulgarization of the Most Holy Sacrament, this preaching of flat-out error and heresy is the result of decades of systematic and organized warfare against the Bride of Christ. Prayer, penance and courage are needed to confront not only the atheists, but the those clergyman also who tell us that there is no Devil or Hell and make promotion of socialism and guilt-free sex the goal of their "ministries." By the way, how can we expect our children to take the Church's teachings seriously when public figures who defy the authority of the Church are married and buried with full honors? - Thomas C. Coleman, Jr. Thu, 06 Jan 2011 13:42:28 +0100