Comments for Regime Changing at http://www.thecatholicthing.org , comment 1 to 12 out of 12 comments http://www.thecatholicthing.org Sun, 26 May 2013 01:59:04 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/regime-changing.html#comment-5954 Excellent essay. If only we could make our Constitution "Declaration compliant" to protect *all* human life, we could better protect it from having Sharia compliance forced on it. - Susan Sun, 06 Feb 2011 14:45:12 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/regime-changing.html#comment-5921 Hold on a second. [A Dominican, taking over an abandoned Jesuit missionary post at the north end of Lake Michigan in the 19th century, invited the local Presbyterian minister to a Sunday afternoon debate. The minister, secure in his hold on his congregation, agreed, but then asked, "We know our differences, isn't this a bit showy?" The Dominican replied, "The flock must hear the Truth for the first time..."] The 'truths' underpinning the western democratic form are robust and elaborated enough to have been anathema at the time to England, and over the years to the South, the facists, the communists and the jihadists, among others. For instance, they would hardly get a warm embrace from the gang running Burma/Myanmar, or any other self-conscious junta. Which means they have plenty of content upon which to confront miscreants, should anyone choose to do so. So I disagree with Fr. Schall's assertion, "No principle of truth or good is allowed. All is tolerated but truth claims, especially religious ones. The purpose of a state to enforce our “natural rights” to do whatever we choose while not hurting anyone else." There is considerably more to the mix than these ingredients. While I am as skeptical of and disappointed with the secular-legal approach to which Fr. Schall alludes, I urge consideration of such as an overstatement of statist quasi-utopianism, which is itself a pebble in the shoe of any reasonably open and tolerant society. Perhaps that will change after riots in Greece and (possible) default in Portugal, California and Illinois, but I am not holding my breath. As long as there is government, some will believe in its omnipotence. Some love their nannies well into adulthood. I hardly think Fr. Schall believes, as he implies, that the way to solve Muslim issues is metaphorically to walk up to Islam and say, "Be reasonable. Live like us." In fact, I think doing so may bring about a de-stabilizing reaction. (Just ask noted political theorists Christianne Amanpour and Anderson Cooper -- both of whom were threatened by angry people amidst Cairo's protestors. Fox reporter Greg Palkot and his cameraman were seriously wounded for the mark of their office and -- apparently -- a strain of anti-US emotion, though this emotion is itself subject to considerable interpretation as Mubarak creating the grounds for military crack-down. I have no idea what it really is.) Rather, the Islamists despise us and our way because of the very truth that grounds our system, and more so because of the compelling power that truth freely arrived at has compared to all forms of tyranny over the minds of men and women. Fr. Schall had a colleague years ago at Georgetown, a liturgist named Lou Cioffi. Fr. Cioffi, SJ, used to distinguish in class between truth and Truth. I think Fr. Schall's note would have benefitted from Fr. Cioffi's distinction, as in: "This heady view of how to deal with the widely diversified regimes that actually exist in the world eliminates the questions of Truth from politics. It views Truth as the cause of political turmoil... the solution to the problem presented by Muslim regimes is... to confront much more directly the truth of their claims." Fr. Schall should have every opportunity to proclaim the Truth to us and to them. But the only way he will get to do it is if they first agree with the truth, that they are free to hear it. - Chris Robling Thu, 03 Feb 2011 15:01:22 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/regime-changing.html#comment-5919 Who ever takes it over,you know its not going to be good plain and simple.Prayer is the only way to survive,these times. - Joseph Diaz Thu, 03 Feb 2011 14:23:24 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/regime-changing.html#comment-5904 I am sorry, but I can't let this pass. You described the Shah as a relatively decent autocrat. The Shah of Iran was in no way "relatively decent" unless your definition of relatively decent includes torture, killing and suppression of any and all opposition. Simply because he was a supporter of the Unites States does not make him decent or any other positive descriptions. - William Benda Wed, 02 Feb 2011 15:56:05 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/regime-changing.html#comment-5901 Wow! That was a great article! Really something to ponder. Actually its something I have been thinking about for a while now. Achilles and Champd are right on in there analysis of this as well. In many ways I think we Christians have been screwed the most by our current 'regime'. Think about it, we have gone from ruling ourselves, in our own way, in our own lands (that we built), to now being 'just another group' out there, ruled by others, bound by relativistic law, and having our once Christian civilization 'bleached' of all its Christianity. Call me crazy, but it sounds like we got the short end of the stick on this one. - Aeneas Wed, 02 Feb 2011 10:05:06 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/regime-changing.html#comment-5900 Building on Achilles point, the glaring omission in the Obama menu for freedom was "freedom of religion." With his anti-colonialist ideology Obama connives to trump our own nation's sincere belief in our Constitution's Bill of Rights, and the PRIORITY it gives to religious liberty, and the free expression thereof. Clearly, what peace-loving Muslims and Christians want and need to hear right now is a different US President, one who would sound the trumpet of Liberty, and boost the courage of millions of decent Moslems to "tear down the prison walls" of religious persecution and hatred erected in so many Moslem nations. But I think President Obama is more interested in isolating Israel than challenging his audience in the world-wide Islamic auditorium. - chris in maryland Wed, 02 Feb 2011 09:38:06 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/regime-changing.html#comment-5898 Thank you Father for taking a step back and an attempt to shed clarity on a particularly dangerous situation, but one that is representative of political delicacies all over the world. It is true that we in the west can fool ourselves into thinking that "democracy" simply speaking is always great - there are different forms of democracy as you hint at. An un-grounded democracy leaves rule for all sorts of tyrannical behavior in all sorts of subtle ways- take the abortion rate in New York City as an easy example- our democracy has lost its footing on one of the most basic truth claims ever- the fact of innocent life. Thanks for alluding to that in your comments Bill. Another thing I find interesting has to do with Father's allusion to "confront the truth of their claims"- i.e. to pursue a dialogue of truth about Islam and the impact of political rule that stems from its view of reality. I wonder- seriously- if the sort of dictatorship that seems to accompany Islamic rule in various parts of the world is directly connected to the sort of voluntaristic notion of God present in Islam itself, as Father talks about in his book on the Regensburg Lecture. If God is sheer will then it makes sense that political rulers pursue the same path in governing their people and obviously the theocratic state seems an ideal for Islam itself. This would make for a good honest debate about what the heights of Christian rule bring to the polis and what the heights of Islamic rule brings to the polis. I suppose that 'Christendom' would be wonderful once again with saints at the helm, but there is something profound to our ability to get on with daily life despite the Gospel not being the law of the land, as much as we would love that to be the case. As heirs of the universal reason of western philosophy we realize that attempts at better political regimes are always a task, but the reason of the Logos, as Father points out, allows Christians to live in a more transcendent order, no matter who is at the helm. - champd Wed, 02 Feb 2011 06:57:41 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/regime-changing.html#comment-5897 I have some limited experience of Egypt, having spent a summer in Cairo learning Arabic (and being deeply impressed by the committment of Copts to their faith). I am not so sure, as the previous commenter is, that the Mubarak regime has been good for Christians. With regard to Islamic extremism, his regime has a played a double game: brutal repression on the hand while, at the same time, pandering to extremists - trying to "steal their thunder" so to speak - on the other. This policy has been disastrous for all Egyptians, but for Christians in particular. The brutal repression only embitters Muslims against the regime and drives them to extremism, while the pandering emboldens them, since it exposes the basic illegitimacy of the regime. - Robert Wed, 02 Feb 2011 06:45:16 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/regime-changing.html#comment-5896 Excellent article Fr. Schall! "The purpose of a state to enforce our “natural rights” to do whatever we choose while not hurting anyone else." This is the wiccan creed "Do what thou wilt, though harm no one." Echoing this narcissistic creed is President Obama when he said,“each of us deserves the freedom to pursue our own version of happiness, each of us deserves the freedom to speak our minds, to not fit in, most of all, to be true to ourselves. That’s the freedom that enriches all of us. That’s what America is all about.” No Mr. Presidend, this is not what America is all about, that is what wicca is all about. The real answer lies in Truth and virtue and in the idea of subsidiarity and a rediscovery of the transcendent. Achilles - Achilles Wed, 02 Feb 2011 06:24:35 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/regime-changing.html#comment-5895 Fr. Schall correctly concludes that the West's submission to the "tyranny of relativism" means that we have abandoned any ground for criticizing real tyranny. The Pope can cogently demand religious freedom and the European elites are now struggling to agree on an inoffensive way to object to anti-Christian violence without using the word "Christian." - Donna Bethell Wed, 02 Feb 2011 06:03:28 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/regime-changing.html#comment-5893 Fr. Schall's analysis includes certain truths that have not received any attention in all the coverage of events in Egypt. Mubarak, who is secular, governs a country that has many warring factions. If his regime would be graded on keeping the peace he would get a B+. He has also made Egypt into a force against radical Islamic extremism. He has joined Israel in fighting Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood. Today, after a week of videos that only showed opposition to Mubarak, his "supporters" and the military materialized. Even with his sometimes glaring shortcomings some forces in Egypt have determined that he is better than those who would succeed him -- in other words he is not alone. For one, the Christian Copts are undoubtedly pleased because he has provided that community with a measure of security in an often violent hostile environment.In the last few days there has been evidence that his Western style critics are a tiny minority of those protesting his regime. Many, probably most, of the demonstrators were from the Muslim Brotherhood who are danger to us all. - AHR Wed, 02 Feb 2011 04:12:22 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/regime-changing.html#comment-5892 It is must be mentioned that Egypt receives the second largest packet of money from the US each year in order to buy its support for the country which receives our largest largesse. Much of that money was used to buy equipment for the police to be used to control...wait for it...the citizens who are now peacefully rising up to demand their rights and to push out an externally funded dictator. Whether you are a foetus in Philadephia or an Iraqi, Egyptian, etc., you know who sets the rules - Bill Wed, 02 Feb 2011 02:47:48 +0100