Comments for Mislaid: 26 million Catholics at http://www.thecatholicthing.org , comment 1 to 24 out of 20 comments http://www.thecatholicthing.org Wed, 22 May 2013 07:32:37 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mislaid-26-million-catholics.html#comment-6814 Agreed Louise one hundred percent. I am just dealing with the aspect of understanding Church teaching which is a big gap in itself. One should be teaching in a community where other things are going on including proper celebration of the sacraments and so on. - Fr. Bramwell Mon, 16 May 2011 15:14:31 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mislaid-26-million-catholics.html#comment-6806 AMEN, Louise! Mystery, and i would add a RADICAL TRUST that the One Who is Judge is LOVE. Love knows. each and every one of us, what we are made of, what we have lived, what our heart is. so Louise's mom, my mom, even my very sick-in-the-soul father, will be judged and their eternal destination determined by Love Who came to rescue the lost..... do we really believe that? let us love Him with all we are, where we are, and our neighbor as our self, and i do believe the net will have so very many "fish" in it. (p.s. what do those in love look like? they GLOW IN THE DARK. that is us you know. St. Paul said we are "stars that shine in the darkness." perfect. when it gets dark enough, most will be drawn to the Light.) - debby Mon, 16 May 2011 05:36:27 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mislaid-26-million-catholics.html#comment-6789 Dear Fr. Bramwell, The one thing that has been left out of these discussions about Catholics who come, Catholics who go, Catholics who stay "in spite of", that I realize now that I tried to hint at and that Debbie also, I believe, hinted at, is Mystery. All of the classes, the discussions, the homilies, lectures, etc. etc., by bishops,, priests, and religious ed. teachers, discussion leaders, seldom mention the great Mystery of the Spirit. "The Spirit blows where He will." Why do some people hear and respond and others hear and turn away, when surely God has the key that will unlock each heart--even Mr. Grump's. We can analyze it to death, but, in the end, it is a Mystery. Yes, we know about the rocky soil and the fertile soil into which the seed falls, and we know that "without a teacher, how will they hear?", but, in the end it remains a Mystery. (Some people hear without a teacher.) We can only do the little that we are given to do and then bow humbly before the Mystery. - Louise Sat, 14 May 2011 19:31:10 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mislaid-26-million-catholics.html#comment-6788 I have been admonised by a fellow Catholic not to refer to myself as "Catholic;" in RCIA, a fellow catechist, declared proudly that she and her husband were work for the Obama campaign; another fellow Catholic warned me that I was too pro-life... Bluntly, this is what you have to put up with to be a Catholic today. But, not always. But it takes courage and leadership and orthodoxy. Two weeks ago, monsignor was compelled to write in the Sunday bulletin that parents should not allow their children to splash about in the St. Therese chapel's Baptismal pool. Also that children shouldn't be eating and leaving "goldfish" crackers in the pews ("please don't force me to put up a NO FOOD AND DRINK IN THE CHURCH sign...") A whole generation, my "babyboomer" generation, believed that rules, etiquette, ceremony, tradition etc. should come "naturally" from within. Very little comes naturally to human beings. Not morality, not law, not even decency. Our Salvation could not be more unnatural. When one looks at the megachurches, the "emerging churches" etc, one is reminded just why the Church is necessary, essential, truly the Body of Christ. Too many schools and parishes and other institutions have become "re-education" rather than education. The late comedian Flip Wilson used to do a routine about The Church of What's Happenin' Now back in the 1970s. Well, it's still going on. I suspect not a few converts finish RCIA either confused or deluded that they're doing just fine and no major adjustments are required. The late Fr. Richard John Neuhaus's words come to mind, "fidelity, fidelity, fidelity." - Graham Combs Sat, 14 May 2011 17:06:49 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mislaid-26-million-catholics.html#comment-6783 "He loves each one of us as if there were only one of us." St. Augustine, the Great sinner, Great Teacher, Great Saint. i understand this post and comments, but i wonder if we aren't missing the point a bit with regards to how intensely personal is the union of God to each of us. i found that quote on a mug 31 years ago at a protestant Bible book store. i had grown up with all the preaching and teaching that is so desperately lacking in too many of our Catholic churches, the personal conversion stories shared monthly at evening Sunday services,(Sunday church was 2 hrs in AM, 2 hrs in PM) Wednesday night was Bible study, Friday/Saturday nights were a youth activity. hours and hours spent every week of my childhood in church as well as going to a protestant school from K thru 7th grades. i had lots and lots of memorized facts and verses and stories, but i was alone in a crowd of souls. all that information but for some reason i didn't know IN MY HEART that God MY FATHER, God-Man Jesus MY LOVER, God MY ADVOCATE-PARACLETE loved me alone. just me. i mattered. it was if there was a block somewhere. a bunch of words: "personal relationship with Jesus Christ" true, yes, but they were in black and white played on a tin can, when i ached for color and Mozart and Vivaldi. i felt like a freak. several times i was asked the question, "what do you want? you expect too much out of life." my parents eventually divorced when i was 21 (about 20 1/2 years too late). my family was both devoutly religious and crazy 1960'2 dysfunctional. BUT my mother prayed. like Louise's mom, not a perfect Christian for sure, but as faithful as she knew to be. Not one of my mother's children have left the Christian faith: my one brother has his doctorate and is a Pastor (but he doesn't speak to me, his Catholic sister) and the other brother is an elder in his Christian and Missionary Alliance church. that said, my CONVERSION was and still is a life-long process of discovering the ONE LOVE, Who has made me for no other purpose than as an expression of His Love, and in that discovering, He so Gently, Graciously, Miraculously drew me to Himself in the ONE TRUE FAITH, the Roman Catholic Church. isn't that true to some extent for each one of us? the discovering of the "you are My one and only" whispered to us in the dark by Him? so, 26 million people are but one for Him, and should any single one of them have the smallest mustard seed size desire to look for Truth, He will be the Faithful One. that said, i know everyone is only one Faith in Heaven.... but then, wasn't Purgatory invented for all who didn't complete RCIA and CCD here? and p.s. grump, go read The Emperor's New Clothes again. i'll be the little boy in the story. i think you know who you are. we are not fooled. go put the Wedding Garment He has paid the price for on already, will you? (all in love my dear ole grump. you've been on my prayer list for a long time...) - debby Sat, 14 May 2011 07:11:38 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mislaid-26-million-catholics.html#comment-6781 Jill, yes I do hear the hunger and it really saddens me. At this stage one has to look around and find parishes where teaching is done, find groups that get to grips with the truth of Catholicism. There is no short cut until the Bishops Conference tackles the problem nationally and individual bishops tackle it at a diocesan level. - Fr. Bramwell Sat, 14 May 2011 05:21:40 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mislaid-26-million-catholics.html#comment-6780 Louise, these are not free flowing discussion groups but groups getting to grips with a text such as the text of Vatican II. There has to be someone trained to lead because we are not seeking private interpretations but public commitment to the public teaching of the Church. So your caution is highly justified. Catholicism has become so privatized in the US that we have to break out of that and get back into the corporate concept that is expressed in Vatican II. - Fr. Bramwell Sat, 14 May 2011 05:18:48 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mislaid-26-million-catholics.html#comment-6778 Father, do you hear the hunger in our voices? We have 4 priests in my parish, all very good men. But one of them tells it like it is, challenges us, truly teaches us. We never know which one will be there to celebrate any Mass, but if the schedule were known, Fr. David would have "groupies"! - Jill Sat, 14 May 2011 04:18:06 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mislaid-26-million-catholics.html#comment-6776 "I also want to reemphasize the need for discussion groups." Father, What kind of discussion groups are you promoting? I, myself, avoid them like the plague. I also avoid adult religious ed. classes unless they are conducted by someone who can speak with authority and can separate the wheat from the chaff among opinions. Unfortunately, the opinion that will stay in the minds of most attendees is the opinion expressed with the most confidence and in the loudest voice, whether it bears any resemblance to truth or not. That old phrase "pooling ignorance" is too true in most such gatherings. One sound lecture by one faithful priest or bishop is more valuable than a whole season of discussion groups in my humble opinion. - Louise Fri, 13 May 2011 14:45:37 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mislaid-26-million-catholics.html#comment-6765 Wow So many great comments. I will defend Lumen Gentium and Gaudium et Spes because they are expressions of the Gospels and they come from Christ the Teacher in the Church. I also want to reemphasize the need for discussion groups. So many issues are so intricate that they do need to be thrashed out in such a setting. The community dimension is the only format for so much of the learning process that we need. - Fr. Bramwell Fri, 13 May 2011 04:33:27 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mislaid-26-million-catholics.html#comment-6764 As Emerson said, "Once we had wooden chalices and golden priests; now we have golden chalices and wooden priests." So many people long for immortality but they don't know what to do with themselves on a rainy afternoon. - Grump Thu, 12 May 2011 17:16:53 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mislaid-26-million-catholics.html#comment-6763 It is interesting to read the comments from the respondents as they watch the wolves snatch their fellow sheep. They cry out for the Good Shepherd who does not bring Gaudium et Spes and Lumen Gentium, but rather the Gospels. - Manfred Thu, 12 May 2011 16:01:31 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mislaid-26-million-catholics.html#comment-6762 Yezhov is absolutely right. I hope you all don't mind my again asserting that this state of affairs did not come about by accident. Those who turned catchesis into "I'm-okay-you're-okay and all relgions are true" were acting to create what has been called a "paralell, counterfeit church" that would replace the One True Church with an organization focused on materialistic social justice instead of Salvation. Even though that is impossiblbe, those trying to undermine the churruch have done much damage in the trying. Back to the Baltimore Catechism, and right now! How bad has it gotten? I know a Catholic with a doctorate in Theology who had never heard of either Abp Sheen or Dietrich Von Hildebrand! - Thomas C. Coleman, Jr. Thu, 12 May 2011 14:37:52 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mislaid-26-million-catholics.html#comment-6760 Yezhov is correct. Those Catholics who have left, in my experience, are seeking "something" that the RC Church has failed to teach. In talking with many of them they seek spirituality yet fail to read and study the Roman Church. The likes of Joyce Meyer has captured many as have books like The Secret. We have such a rich heritage yet it is slipping by these people. I do put a lot of the blame on the post-VatII people who have failed to catechize our congregants appropriately as well as priests and nuns who dumb down the RC religion. - Liz Thu, 12 May 2011 09:49:58 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mislaid-26-million-catholics.html#comment-6759 Dear Grump, it is like what Fulton Sheen said, something like "there are about 100 people who hate the Catholic Church, but millions who think they do. What they hate is their misunderstanding of what the Church is." (I wasn't close on the words, but you get the idea.) Those who claim to have left the Chruch, for the most part, were never really there in a meaningful sense. - Achilles Thu, 12 May 2011 08:53:52 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mislaid-26-million-catholics.html#comment-6758 To Grump - I wish I had the eloquence to pierce your well-fortified bunker of words. The things you say often contain a bit of truth mixed with exaggeration and what seems like sleight of hand to make your points. But do consider that conversion is an individual matter. 26 million individuals could have a change of heart in moments. Such an instantaneous return of the prodigals is unlikely unless there is an event of sufficient importance to change basic perceptions. While we are spending our inheritance times are good and there is not much reason to rise above distraction. But when we have spent our earthly resources and drought is on the land (Tsunami? Run-away reactor? Terror attack? Economic miscalculation? Political oppression? Or just the end of a long life?) we might look with nostalgia on our childhood memories of our Father’s house. Religion offers its comforts to the sinner, the lost, the poor, the downtrodden or any who have found their own pride to be a thin garment for windy days. - Other Joe Thu, 12 May 2011 08:46:53 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mislaid-26-million-catholics.html#comment-6757 I usually beat up on the post Vatican II liturgical deformers for stripping the mystery out of our Sacred Mysteries and thereby drivng untold numbers of laity to malls on Sundays rather than suffer through the Fr. X's unsubstantial it's-about-me homilies. But I think next to that circle of Hell (or Purgatory if we want mercy for the SOB's) reserved for the dumbed down liturgists will be one (either higher or lower -- can't decide) for the post Vat II catechists who decided that little kids should learn to be Carl Rogers/Norman Brown idiots rather than learn their Faith. - Yezhov Thu, 12 May 2011 08:17:33 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mislaid-26-million-catholics.html#comment-6756 Dissent in the pews has been one harbinger of 'fallen away'. But in my opinion dissent among the bishops, priests and nuns has had a magnifying effect on people rejecting the Church. Enough of them have lost our confidence so that those who don't fall away hang on in spite of them, not because of them. The USCCB is a glaring example of the source of confusion in the American Church. - senex Thu, 12 May 2011 08:00:51 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mislaid-26-million-catholics.html#comment-6755 Ditto Sandra's comments on faith formation. Most people who drift away do so in young adulthood. Well, back when I was growing up the 1960s and 70s, the only faith formation I got was "Be Good." And a whole generation said, "I am good. I don't need the Church for that." And they never looked back. - Alan Thu, 12 May 2011 06:07:20 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mislaid-26-million-catholics.html#comment-6754 As a lay-woman, may I give my opinion? INCOMPLETE and INACCURATE Faith Formation, both in the parochial schools and for those children that attended public schools. When I was a teen, I saw and read the books that my parents (dad - parochial and Catholic High School in the 1940s; and mom, public schools and attended Catechism classes in the 1940s) had used in their formal faith formation, my books (1960s) were "kiddie" books in comparison. They were taught about things like "spiritual warfare" and "eternity," where I got "Jesus loves me" and lyrics from Godspell, not the Gospels. - Sandra Thu, 12 May 2011 05:37:15 +0100