Comments for Analogies and the Death of Bin Laden at http://www.thecatholicthing.org , comment 1 to 20 out of 20 comments http://www.thecatholicthing.org Mon, 20 May 2013 21:39:32 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/analogies-and-the-death-of-bin-laden.html#comment-6817 The problem with the analogies is that the author is asking the wrong question. There is a difference between what is allowed under international law and what is morally correct. Both Beckwith and Wright should know this and avoid the senseless hypothesizing about what if this that or the other thing. Governments have the right of self-defense and a right to extradite or kidnap an individual to bring that person to justice. The operation must be limited in time and effects and all the contrived scenarios along with the real event seem to meet minimum requirements of international law. What is missing is a discussion of intent. It is here where things are not clear, as the President did not explicitly state the exact orders given to the team. Although, I understand the order went something like, “Kill or capture.” This is the crux of the moral issue. If the intent was to capture to bring to justice and if that were not possible then kill I would say the US is morally justified in the events assuming the team on the ground operated in a reasonable fashion given the situation at the time. Only God and perhaps the members immediately involved in the shooting know for sure if their actions were truly justified. I cannot judge and rely on the training, reputation, and professionalism of those directly involved. I assume that they properly carried out their orders. I worry more about the attitude and statements of our national leadership. There appears to be no standard story as to exactly what was ordered how the mission unfolded. The joy and smiles appeared too broad and congratulatory to indicate to me that anyone wanted Bin Laden captured. So, we go back to the intent. I hope the intent was to capture and kill only if necessary. However, who can say except for the principals involved. Only God and they, perhaps, know for sure. - Nick Mon, 16 May 2011 18:11:19 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/analogies-and-the-death-of-bin-laden.html#comment-6809 Re: Homicide Double Standard "OBL was a mass murderer who has never stopped killing" The 5th Commandment forbids the murder of both the guilty and innocent. "If He wanted to avoid the comeuppence he got, he could have surrendered anytime to US athorities in the last ten years." It was the decision of our Christian President to send his SEALS to murder Mr. Bin Laden. "Richard, there was always the possibility he might have had a concealed weapon on him." Soldiers and Marines serving in Afghanistan and Iraq have been charged with Homicide under the UCMJ for entering compounds and killing, in cold blood, unarmed Muslim suspects. The 5th Commandment (and the UCMJ)applies even to SEALS in Pakistan. "Why should our soldiers take any chances of being killed by a concealed suicide bomb or a small concealed mini-sub-gun?" Then why not just kill every Muslim on sight? Better yet why not stand off a safe distance and nuke em till their eyes glow in the dark? "keep swallowing camels and straining gnats" The Church allows under certain circumstances self defense but not preventative violence. Murder, in the end, will always have more harm on the murderer. God bless Richard W Comerford - Richard W Comerford Mon, 16 May 2011 07:59:36 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/analogies-and-the-death-of-bin-laden.html#comment-6807 "A sick, old, man". Ah, come on Richard! OBL was a mass murderer who has never stopped killing. If He wanted to avoid the comeuppence he got, he could have surrendered anytime to US athorities in the last ten years. Also, Richard, there was always the possibility he might have had a concealed weapon on him. Why should our soldiers take any chances of being killed by a concealed suicide bomb or a small concealed mini-sub-gun? Well Dick, keep swallowing camels and straining gnats! You're good at that! - Stephen E Dalton Mon, 16 May 2011 06:06:50 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/analogies-and-the-death-of-bin-laden.html#comment-6794 ZN: You also seem to be missing the point. Prof. Beckwith is not putting together a wishlist of other military actions. He's not saying the Jesuits would have done such a thing. He is asking, "Would it have been unjust to liberate St. Thomas More from the Tower of London by violating England's sovereign rights?" The actors involved are just window-dressing; focus on the point of the analogy. Wright's charge is that the U.S. committed an injustice by violating Pakistan's sovereignty (it is perfectly fair to defend the position that we did do so). Beckwith is countering that it may not always be an injustice to violate the sovereignty of another nation. His historical-fiction examples are meant to illustrate only this and nothing more. He even says, with which I agree, that the Great Britain in Wright's example would NOT be acting unjustly (or at least might not be) in taking matters into its own hands against the U.S. As I said in my last post, there are many aspects of the Bin Laden operation which can be debated. What is important (as it is in any other context) is to focus on what is actually being discussed and not on what else we could be discussing. - Rob Sun, 15 May 2011 06:38:27 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/analogies-and-the-death-of-bin-laden.html#comment-6792 I used to support the death penalty, but the closer I've come to God the more I realize that the death penalty is an unjust punishment. OBL was summarily executed, and received no due process. Use all of the analogies you wish, this was an unjust act. The SEALS can shoot a woman in the leg to get her out of the way without killing her but they can't shoot to incapaciate an unarmed man? The last report that I saw said that only one of the men killed was actually firing at the SEALS, the remaining 5 were unarmed. No, this was not justified given the facts as we know them. OBL could have been taken alive, which would have posed numerous problems for the U.S., so the easy way out was taken. - sparks1093 Sun, 15 May 2011 03:07:42 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/analogies-and-the-death-of-bin-laden.html#comment-6791 Libertarianism is condemned by the Church. - D.A. Howard Sat, 14 May 2011 19:55:06 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/analogies-and-the-death-of-bin-laden.html#comment-6790 Francis, there are million analogies. We need to combat liberalism and moral relativism in the Church. Keep up the good fight and welcome to the Church. - D.A. Howard Sat, 14 May 2011 19:54:10 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/analogies-and-the-death-of-bin-laden.html#comment-6787 Re: Homicide DoubleStandard Soldiers and Marines serving in Afghanistan and Iraq are routinely charged with homicide under the UCMJ if they shoot and kill an unarmed civilian even if the victim is a known terrorist. However when SEALS shoot to death in cold blood an unarmed, sick, old man in his bedroom in Pakistan they are not charged with homicide but hailed as heroes. Maybe the 5th Commandment is not operable in Pakistan? God bless Richard W Comerford - Richard W Comerford Sat, 14 May 2011 13:26:34 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/analogies-and-the-death-of-bin-laden.html#comment-6786 The first analogy is much more coherent. Just admit that America can do whatever it wants, however it wants, because we are the good guys and everyone else is evil. Judge Andrew Napolitano has had excellent commentary on this situation. - Max Sat, 14 May 2011 12:57:55 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/analogies-and-the-death-of-bin-laden.html#comment-6785 There are some 'silly' things here. One does not 'break into' the TOWER OF LONDON; HAVE YOU SEEN IT? Not in the 1500's. Not with any sort of a-historical jokes about Hitler or helicopters. What exactly (if anything) have you read on the scholarly young gentlemen, lawyers and philosophers, who formed the heart of the Jesuits (from the college of Sta. Barbara at the University of Paris)? You are being absurd. These are not 'analogies'. How quickly they went to nurse the sick and teach in the foreign missions. But back to the REALITIES of imprisonment and death. Have you not read of the imprisonment and death of Mary, Queen of Scots, in that infamous tower? Could any of her soldiers or her courtiers get her out? Of the ten years' spent in 'solitary' there, by the aristocratic martyr St. Philip Howard? And are you quite certain that St. Thomas More, whom you grossly denigrate here, would have consented to escape? You can stop this 'cops and robbers' nonsense. Was his own life his highest value? Surely even you don't think so. Didn't you ever have to read Socrates' own arguments to his gaoler, as to why he would not run away from the dubious 'justice' of his native land? - ZN Sat, 14 May 2011 08:56:57 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/analogies-and-the-death-of-bin-laden.html#comment-6784 Several of the comments discuss the justice of the U.S. military action insofar as it relates to Osama Bin Laden and his family. This is a worthy topic of discussion but it is not what Wright and Beckwith are discussing/debating. Wright's contention is that the U.S. acted unjustly in its treatment of Pakistan, violating their sovereignty. Beckwith's "historical fiction" counter-examples show that violating the sovereignty of another nation is not necessarily unjust (and I likewise think that Great Britain might well not be acting unjustly in Wright's own analogy). To say that the St. Thomas More analogy fails because he was not accused of real criminal activities misses the point entirely: the analogies are comparing the governments involved on both sides, not the "target" of the operations. If the More analogy fails it is because the Society of Jesus and the Church of England were not formal allies as the U.S. and Pakistan are. - Rob Sat, 14 May 2011 08:09:52 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/analogies-and-the-death-of-bin-laden.html#comment-6782 only God knows. however, Jesus did say while living under an oppressive foreign gov't, "Whoever lives by the sword, dies by the sword." i wonder if our Great Holy Father as his first act of Mercy as an official "Blessed" of the True Faith had prayed for Bin Laden's soul AND mortal demise. just a thot from a lover of souls - even the disgusting ones. - debby Sat, 14 May 2011 06:28:22 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/analogies-and-the-death-of-bin-laden.html#comment-6779 This discussion brings to mind a quotation of Golda Mair when she was fighting for the survival of Israel: To her enemies she said, "We don't hate you because you kill our children. We hate you because you make us kill yours." I don't think that even the United States has ever used that criterion as a reason for going to war and especially not for killing bin Laden. BTW, I thought that the jubilee and the "victory lap" and the "spiking the footfall" were, in their entirety, reprehensible and not worthy of our country. - Louise Sat, 14 May 2011 04:20:06 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/analogies-and-the-death-of-bin-laden.html#comment-6775 Hen: I, too, think it unlikely that Bin Laden would have been wired with a bomb. But, given his obviously casual attitude towar dthe value of innocent human life (I will not deign to debate the innocence of those killed on in the 9/11 attacks), and the indifference of militant Islam to the dignity of women and protection of children, I do not believe it unthinkable that this man would have been willing to sacrifice even his own children to further his religious and political ideology. With such a man as this, it is perhaps best to err on the side of caution. - Billy Bean Fri, 13 May 2011 13:02:28 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/analogies-and-the-death-of-bin-laden.html#comment-6771 Many thusly have commented, using this far fetched idea that Bin Laden was wired with a bomb. It's simply not believable, because of the long elapsed time factor from 9/11, and the reality that this man was cohabiting with women there, and children were being nurtured there too. - Hen Fri, 13 May 2011 11:22:35 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/analogies-and-the-death-of-bin-laden.html#comment-6770 I suppose I should have added to my earlier post, by way of full disclosure, that I am a retired Naval officer, although never in any way formally connected to the SEAL community, although I have had several who were respected friends. Keith Töpfer LCDR, USN [ret] - Martial Artist Fri, 13 May 2011 08:54:01 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/analogies-and-the-death-of-bin-laden.html#comment-6769 @Diane Peski, I tend to agree with most all of what you have written, with one reservation. I have not rigorously followed the news coverage on the raid, nor on its preparations, so the following may be hampered by my being unaware of a relevant fact. That said, I do not recall having heard, at any time since the success of the raid was announced, that the President (of whom, I will freely admit, I can not be considered a fan on any basis) ordered the killing of bin Laden, other than as a possible consequence of his violently resisting capture and "extradition by extralegal means." If that is not because I "didn't get the memo," then I would assert that anyone who charges that the President literally "ordered that bin Laden be killed" and builds an objection on that basis is simply wildly mistaken. He (or she) would first have to make the case that Mr. Obama's predecessor (of whom I was also not a fan) was equivalently wrong in declaring bin Laden an outlaw and placing a bounty on his head. Neither Wright, nor judge Napolitano have made such a case, and they have had almost a decade to do so. In my book that marks the end of discussion. Pax et bonum, Keith Töpfer - Martial Artist Fri, 13 May 2011 08:50:57 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/analogies-and-the-death-of-bin-laden.html#comment-6768 I appreciated Wright's analogy in that he was not attempting to create an identical story - for there is none, as we've seen. Rather, he seemed to be primarily interested in eliciting some deeper thoughts about all this since the incident exposed some serious theological flaws among many Christians. We would be foolish to pass by this incident without much deep reflection. We would be even more foolish to merely conclude that it was not appropriate to celebrate bin Laden's assassination. There is, as Wright is suggesting, a need to rethink the kind of theological foundation from which we operate. Do our responses truly represent Jesus to the world..or not? - Bill Colburn Fri, 13 May 2011 07:40:42 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/analogies-and-the-death-of-bin-laden.html#comment-6767 Spot on - Thomas Mathew Fri, 13 May 2011 07:18:23 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/analogies-and-the-death-of-bin-laden.html#comment-6766 Probably the best thing both Wright and Beckwith are doing is getting us to seriously grapple with issues of war, justice, retribution, mercy, and how this fits into the wider reality of our modern world. And for this I salute The Catholic Thing for publishing Dr. Beckwith's thoughts. For me none of the analogies suggested come close to covering the moral issues. Bin Laden was never an 'armed combatant' in the context of a declared war. Hence using Hitler is not a perfect analogy. Bin Laden was an international terrorist where innocent people from dozens of countries were killed...many in the course of their normal days...hence working within a single country analogy of the IRA ( United Kingdom) isn't a complete comparison either. The Thomas More analogy, while encapsulating the religious elements, isn't fair since More never was accused of real criminal activities - only religious arguments of theology and remains a sympathetic figure regardless of religious persuasion. We live in a world with resources never dreamed of before. Where evil can grow in ways that extend beyond any reasonable possiblity to damage, maime, kill and destroy ("the thief comes not but to kill, steal and destroy," Jesus said..never is it more true than today) not just those chosen to engage in armed combat - hence clear issues of things like 'just wars' that the Church has grappled with for centuries don't completely cover the questions I think we face today. So the Church NEEDS to continue to lead in thinking these questions through. Sadly, our world has found a murkiness of undeclared conflicts capable of destructions, atrocities, and evil beyond the minds of most humans who ever lived, and this causes the struggles we are trying to answer in places like The Catholic Thing. It seems to me the question of taking out Bin Laden is one that forces us to look into the 'small' matters as much as the big ones to try and piece together a coherent moral focus. 1)Why didn't the US simply bomb the place from miles away? 2)Why didn't the helos simply get a good, close-up and then bomb the compound? 3)Why didn't the SEALS shoot to kill every single person they saw, including children? 4)Why did the SEALS shoot the woman in the room in the leg first, instead of to kill? 5)Why did the US even attempt to follow Muslim burial guidelines to dispose of Bin Laden's body? 6)Why has Obama chosen NOT to display the photos of the death? I submit it is in these smaller questions that we might find some reasons to look for morality, for mercy, for retribution, for justice.... The ONLY country in the world with the skills and resources to have found, planned and executed the course that led to the death of this internationally known terrorist, criminal, financeer of murderous plots, known hater of anyone non-Islamist as he was...was the United States. The decisions made to seek his death stemmed from the fact that THIS man declared war on an entire nation ( and in reality any non-Islamic non-Shariah compliant society)20 years ago and then carried out plots to prove his point. Our response, anemic in the 90's finally came to a focus almost 10 years ago, 9/11/01. It IS queasy to think about that night on the first of May. Bravo to those who question unthinking revelry in response. But it is, in my opinion, a very poor analogy,Wright has chosen to make his moral comparisons. Thanks Dr. Beckwith for your response to it. - Diane Peske Fri, 13 May 2011 05:47:17 +0100