Comments for The Abuse Crisis and Church Independence at http://www.thecatholicthing.org , comment 1 to 12 out of 12 comments http://www.thecatholicthing.org Sat, 25 May 2013 06:08:48 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-abuse-crisis-and-church-independence.html#comment-7018 @jsmitty: on chart 3.7.4, the report on the John Jay website states, "Of the 217 priests who were charged with a crime, a majority (138) were convicted." And on chart 3.7.3 it says the total number of priests charged was 217. Are you sure we are looking at the same report? See http://johnjay.jjay.cuny.edu/churchstudy/_pdffiles/cleric7.pdf. In any case, this is not just about numbers. I agree with you that sex abuse of children and minors should be vigorously prosecuted, but with the usual constitutional safeguards for every priest charged. - Howard Kainz Thu, 09 Jun 2011 19:50:00 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-abuse-crisis-and-church-independence.html#comment-7017 Part of the problem has been the Church's constant out-of-court settlements. By settling so many cases out of court, with fairly little review of the veracity of many of the accusations, the Church, itself, short-circuited the "innocent until proven guilty" maxim. In an ideal situation, abuse would have been reported to the police when it happened. Accusations brought to the Church decades later, after evidence has dried up and the statute of limitations has expired, can't be dealt with justly. The Church's feeble attempts to appear to be dealing charitably and in good faith have only made matters worse. Of course, the Church has yet to recognize (or, at least, to publicly state) that victims should skip calling the chancery office altogether and report rape to the police. Counting on Bishops, who lack the investigatory powers of civil law enforcement and are expected to provide for the defense of their priests, to be the ones leading investigations into abuse accusations seems little short of madness. - MikeM Thu, 09 Jun 2011 16:30:15 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-abuse-crisis-and-church-independence.html#comment-7016 Howard: You have no "behind the scenes" knowledge...? Good, let's remedy that. Please Google: Archbishop McCarrick Syndrome Fr. John Minkler (look for Paul Likoudis's article.) - Manfred Thu, 09 Jun 2011 15:47:23 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-abuse-crisis-and-church-independence.html#comment-7015 @ Howard Kainz...OK. I'm going to try one more time. On chart 3.7.4 in the John Jay report, it clearly states that the total number of convictions was 252. Whereas on table 3.7.3, it clearly states that the number of priests criminally indicted was 384. But the larger point here is that these convictions are a red herring. They are not even the tip of the iceberg since in only about one quarter of the cases were the police even involved anyway. You don't seem to grasp this. Not only are you grossly understating the scope of the problem, the fact that thousands of these cases were settled out of court utterly contradicts your bizarre claim of "state incursion" into church affairs. No, as for the perpetrators of these outrages, the vast majority,if they suffered any consequences at all (which many didn't), simply got reassigned to a new parish, or sent on retreat or laicized, after which many no doubt resumed their careers as predators in secular environments. I don't always agree with pieces in the Catholic Thing but this one is about as impervious to facts and logic of any that I've read. - jsmitty Thu, 09 Jun 2011 14:27:06 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-abuse-crisis-and-church-independence.html#comment-7013 @jsmitty: The 252 priests you mention are not the ones convicted, but the ones accused of pedophilia out of a total of 109,694 priests during that period, in other words, 0.3%. @Manfred: Unlike others, I have no "behind the scenes" knowledge about whether Cardinal Bernardin was guilty. I am just saying that any priest or bishop who is accused of abuse should be considered innocent until proven guilty. - Howard Kainz Thu, 09 Jun 2011 12:06:58 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-abuse-crisis-and-church-independence.html#comment-7012 Actually 252 priests were convicted. But the real problem here is that "convicted" is a classic statistical dodge. Your argument is profoundly misleading and disingenuous. "Convicted" implies criminal charges were pressed and guilty verdicts were the outcome. That's were the standard "innocent until proven guilty" applies. But the vast majority of these cases were settled out of civil court with no criminal charges ever filed. The Jay report itself says that only 384 of the priests and deacons alleged to have committed abuse were ever criminally charged. That's well under 10% of the total number of clergy accused. In nearly 3/4 of the cases the police were never notified. In most cases, the Church essentially paid most of the victims to go away quietly. You and I both know there were far, far more than 138 priests and bishops who did terrible things to those under their care. The Jay report itself makes that obvious while noting that surely many cases of abuse were never reported. I honestly don't know what you are trying to accomplish by trying to cast the Church as a victim here. - jsmitty Thu, 09 Jun 2011 11:09:39 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-abuse-crisis-and-church-independence.html#comment-7011 Howard: There was no question of "repressed memories". Fr. Fiore was phoned by Cook's Chicago attorney because he, Fiore, lived in Lodi, WI and knew the Church in Chicago very well. The attorney wanted to know if he, Fiore. would be able to tell if Cook had indeed a sexual liaison with Cdl. B. Cook was told to speak to Fiore by phone from a private room. This was done. Fiore gave no advice to Cook!Cook's attorney called Fiore and was told: As each homosexual has his own pattern and as I have been told of Bernardin's, I will attest that Stephen Cook had at least one liaison with Bernardin. What you do with this information is up to you and your client. As Fiore said to me, "I never told anyone to sue anyone. I would never suggest or recommend that a Church leader be sued." By the way, Randy Engel in her book "Rite of Sodomy",insists that Bernardin was the only source stating that Cook had recanted. - Manfred Thu, 09 Jun 2011 10:33:44 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-abuse-crisis-and-church-independence.html#comment-7010 @jsmitty: About 6000 priests were accused during the half-century examined by the John Jay report, and, as I mentioned, 138 were convicted. I'm not sure that either you or I can know that "the vast majority of these cases were highly credible." The principle, "innocent until proven guilty," should apply in these cases as well as any others. - Howard Kainz Thu, 09 Jun 2011 10:24:59 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-abuse-crisis-and-church-independence.html#comment-7009 I found this piece a little tone-deaf. Brad Miner's the other day was much more on the money. The vast majority of these cases were highly credible. Many more surely went unreported because of the desire of the victims to get on with their lives. Of the handful of cases which were unjust or like the enemies of the Church are piling on...what can one say but that this is the suffering the American Church has brought on itself for years of mishandling this problem, from the seminary culture forward. It will take a long time to rebuild the credibility of the Church and the prestige of the priesthood. This is the season for serious repentance and soul searching and not more whining about "greedy attorneys" and "historic anti-Catholicism." Do you expect many people to buy your argument that the Church really the victim here? - jsmitty Thu, 09 Jun 2011 07:56:45 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-abuse-crisis-and-church-independence.html#comment-7007 @Manfred: Cardinal Bernardin, in his book, The Gift of Peace, writes about this incident, "Although Steven was pursuing a case only against his seminary teacher, his priest adviser began mentioning me, Cardinal Bernardin, suggesting that, if I were included in the case, Steven would surely get back what he wanted from the church. This 'spiritual guide' pushed my name, urging Steven to name me along with the other priest in the legal action." According to the New York Times, Feb. 1, 1997, Fr. Fiore thought he was the priest Bernardin was referring to, but "Father Fiore said that he spoke to Mr. Cook once, two days before the suit was filed, but that he neither discussed it nor advised Mr. Cook to name the Cardinal in it." Many psychologists have characterized the recall of "repressed memories" as quack science. See, e.g. Elizabeth Loftus and Katherine Ketchum, The Myth of Repressed Memories (1994). In general, I think it would be prudent to trust the word of Cardinal Bernardin against the repressed memory of Stephen Cook. - Howard Kainz Thu, 09 Jun 2011 05:38:17 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-abuse-crisis-and-church-independence.html#comment-7005 What is often not appreciated in evaluating Pope John Paul II's response (or supposed lack thereof) to the clergy sex abuse scandal is this: in his experience as a priest and bishop under totalarian regimes (Nazi and communist), such charges were always 1) directed against those priests most injurious to the regime, and 2) false. And thirdly, one never took such concerns to the police and public magistrates. - Richard A Thu, 09 Jun 2011 03:03:08 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-abuse-crisis-and-church-independence.html#comment-7004 You overmake your case. The Traditional orders, which produce sacerdotal priests instead of mere "presiders", cannot handle the number of applications applications to their seminaries. Fr. Charles Fiore, the priest who advised Steven Cook's attorney that Steven and then Abp. Bernardin did have sexual relations, explained to me that Cook's only reason to sue was to gain money for medical care as he was dying of AIDS, "recanted" when money mysteriously appeared. The U.S. Church has paid three billion in settling these cases and, as Philadelphia shows, the Church still cannot understand the problem. - Manfred Thu, 09 Jun 2011 01:35:09 +0100