Comments for Mormonism, Catholicism, and the Romney Candidacy at http://www.thecatholicthing.org , comment 1 to 60 out of 20 comments http://www.thecatholicthing.org Thu, 23 May 2013 17:37:38 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mormonism-catholicism-and-the-romney-candidacy.html#comment-14131 Never thought the day would come that the Catholic Church would endorse an anti-Catholic and anti-Christian Mormon who at best puts the rich and powerful ahead of regular people. Romney believes when he dies, he will be God equal to Jesus Christ. For him to believe he can become equal to God is Satanic ! - G R Tue, 30 Oct 2012 21:02:06 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mormonism-catholicism-and-the-romney-candidacy.html#comment-12746 Well written and well said. The last thing this country needs is a phony conservative that hides his $$$, wanted to closed the American auto industry, shipped American jobs overseas, switched every position known to mankind at least twice and can't leave this country without embarrassing himself or this great country. Plus I can't picture him wearing those magical under wear garments all those Mormons wear without laughing. This is the poorest excuse for a Republican candidate I've ever seen. - Daniel Troppy Sat, 04 Aug 2012 16:30:35 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mormonism-catholicism-and-the-romney-candidacy.html#comment-12111 I'm a Catholic and I'm proud to be. First, we shouldn't judge anybody by what church they belong. Even Jesus didn't want His church to split up. But to those who read this, let me ask you two questions: What is the church that Jesus left us of the church he left St. Peter? And who split up from us? When you searched anything about the establishment of Catholicism, Jesus is the answer. - Mary Matias Fri, 22 Jun 2012 23:45:47 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mormonism-catholicism-and-the-romney-candidacy.html#comment-10163 Mormons can believe what they want (we live in a heavily populated mormon area) but it's some of their beliefs for women that I have a serious concern with. When my daughter's friend (in high school) came over one day and tells me that she's going to college to get a MRS degree because she doesn't want to end up being an "old cat lady", I thought she was kidding. She said no, that she's a good mormon girl. I see too many girls go to college not to pursue a degree to fall back on but get married Very young, and start immediately pumping out babies. Then they stay at home and their sole purpose is to raise the kids, maintain the home and husband. Many say that is their sole purpose in life but I wonder if they never wish for more or if they have been too blinded by their faith that they have lost their own identity and self. As for the comment about mormons being judgemental that is VERY TRUE. Once a carpooling group I belonged to found out I wasn't mormon, I was told in a nice way that I won't be saved and I wasn't good enough. So much for leaving God to do the judging, apparently mormons already do that for him. - Paige Wed, 29 Feb 2012 07:16:51 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mormonism-catholicism-and-the-romney-candidacy.html#comment-8723 "...magic underwear..."-C the B Do you really want to go there? A scapular could also be disparaged as "magic underwear". - Micha Elyi Sat, 29 Oct 2011 21:29:03 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mormonism-catholicism-and-the-romney-candidacy.html#comment-8194 I have hearing about people not supporting Mitt Romney because he is not conservative enough, or that he is too liberal. First and foremost, Mitt Romney believes in the state government role over the federal government. Policies and laws which could work in Massachusetts may not work in Virginia or say Texas. The Federal government should not mandate that once cookie cutter policy fits. It is the old Federalism argument. Abraham Lincoln made numerous speeches about the role of State Government in the 1830's and 1840's. As for the LDS role...Governor Romney is truer to his faith than many current Catholic Politicians are about theirs. I am not here to question his faith or doctrinal beliefs. I am supporting him becuase of his expertise in business and government. - Steven Kramer Tue, 20 Sep 2011 09:47:23 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mormonism-catholicism-and-the-romney-candidacy.html#comment-7286 "You know, genetic testing has conclusively shown that American Indians are NOT Jewish, and thus not the lost tribe of Israel." (from J's post) The problem with this statement is that neither the Book of Mormon nor any Latter-day Saint leader or member has ever claimed or believed that American Indians are Jewish, nor has anyone claimed that they are a lost tribe of Israel. The Nephites and Lamanites (two warring groups of people described in the Book of Mormon) were in part descended from Joseph, which is not one of the lost tribes. Latter-day Saints believe that the lost tribes are, actually, lost. We don't know where they are. - Eichendorff Sun, 03 Jul 2011 07:56:39 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mormonism-catholicism-and-the-romney-candidacy.html#comment-7117 Well spoken sir! And well reasoned. - George Sat, 18 Jun 2011 21:48:42 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mormonism-catholicism-and-the-romney-candidacy.html#comment-7116 As a Latter-day Saint academic who has known Richard Sherlock for many years and has actually edited and published some of his work, I should point out that, as recently as just a few months ago, he was proclaiming his strong faith in Mormonism, and its theological superiority over classical theism (including mainstream Catholic views) on line. (He has also done so in print.) Richard is, of course, free to espouse Catholicism now, but I'm frankly disappointed by the newly minted anti-Mormon persona that he's adopted. I have considered him a friend, but, if he continues down this path, I and others will feel the need, out of commitment to our own faith, to respond to his claims. - Daniel Peterson Sat, 18 Jun 2011 20:42:06 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mormonism-catholicism-and-the-romney-candidacy.html#comment-7111 Seth, You haven't what P is for Mormons. What do you think it is? Then, and only then can we evaluate Mormonism. Where do you draw the line and why. Slippery slope arguments can be perfectly valid and correctly. If you cant show a clear reason to distinguish an unborn child from born child then an argument for abortion will also justify killing a child. If you don't like this result then the reason for abortion must be wrong. The fact that it does not "speak to" someone is irrelevant - richard Sherlock Fri, 17 Jun 2011 10:35:25 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mormonism-catholicism-and-the-romney-candidacy.html#comment-7105 Richard, you'll just have to live with the nuance of life. Like most people do. Very few people on the planet demand absolute infallibility from their religion - whether they admit it or not. For instance, Roman Catholicism has nuance between what the Pope says and what the scriptures say, and whether they can be influenced by "Tradition." Even Bible-only Evangelicals usually turn out to be interpreting their Bible in light of traditional reads, and even their own political agendas on occasion. So the sort of un-nuanced infallible sort of religion you are talking about is something that simply doesn't exist - in ANY faith tradition. I don't know why it should be a problem that it doesn't exist in Mormonism either. And your slippery-slope argument on abortion doesn't really speak much to me either. Of course you can draw the line somewhere. Most people do draw the line somewhere. You just have to have a sufficient moral basis to do it. I believe we have one. - Seth R. Thu, 16 Jun 2011 16:59:45 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mormonism-catholicism-and-the-romney-candidacy.html#comment-7089 Seth your discussion of abortion is mormonism but its intellectual and moral nonsense. This is my professional field so if you want to debate go ahead. When exactly does it become murder to end a life? What about killing a newborn? Down this road is moral nihilism. But your former comment about infallibilty simply cant be true. If so then Joseph Smith could be wrong when he made claims about the angel Moroni and the golden plates. If you say that every "true" Mormon must believe these things then they must be taught infallibly. One you admit this then you must be able to tell me what Mormons must believe and how one is to know what these are e.g taught by Joseph or other prophets? taught by more than one prophet? If there are no beliefs that Mormons must hold then Mormonism cannot be either true or false. Lets put it this way Mormons say I know that P is true. where P is "the gospel" What then is the cognitive content of P ? If you cant tell me what P is then you can't say that P is true. - richard Sherlock Wed, 15 Jun 2011 20:37:54 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mormonism-catholicism-and-the-romney-candidacy.html#comment-7088 The LDS Church generally opposes abortion, but it does so in a manner much differently from the Roman Catholic church. We have no theology of "life" beginning at conception. We have no doctrine stating that soul and body are created together at any particular part in the prenatal process. We also believe that human spirits pre-exist the conception and birthing process. So we have no concept of God creating a "life" ex nihilo at some point during or after conception. The process of conception to us is merely the process by which the physical body is prepared. We believe at some point the spirit enters into that body. But it is a pre-existing spirit, and it is not created on the spot. Subsequently, we do not have the same sense of "loss of a unique life" that one does as a Catholic. Our assumption is simply that this particular spirit missed its chance to be born at this time, and will simply have to wait for the next opportunity. Our Church leaders have come out strongly against abortion. However, you'll note that they rarely, if ever, use phrases about abortion being "murder," or the ending of a "life" in some legal sense. You might say that LDS theology is not particularly interested in these sorts of legalisms. We have little interest in when you do or do not have a "life." Nor do we consider having an abortion morally equivalent to murder. Our objection to abortion is usually framed in terms of our objection to people running away from their responsibilities or the consequences of their actions. We object to the trivialization of the sexual process, which we hold to be a sacred stewardship - granted to human beings by God. We feel like he granted us his own creative power in some measure in this way - and that it should not be trivialized, or disrespected. That is our objection to abortion. It's not the same objection that the Vatican has. This is why we allow abortion in instances of rape, incest or significant threat to the life or health of the mother. But even in these instances, LDS policy directs that the people involved make it a matter of prayer and counsel with their bishop. So you are mistaken about Romney in this case. It's not that he lacks a theological foundation. He just has a different one than you do. - Seth R. Wed, 15 Jun 2011 13:29:39 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mormonism-catholicism-and-the-romney-candidacy.html#comment-7076 Astonishingly, your article shows why it’s morally wrong to privatize religion (Classical Liberalism) such that when considering a candidate his religion need not be taken into account nor should the candidate impose his religious beliefs when making law. What’s sad is the widespread idea that what one believes is irrelevant in whether one is a viable candidate. This is precisely what led to the JFK fallacy that he can be Catholic in private only and thus push anti-Catholic agendas publicly since the two spheres are separate. Such results in a dualism that hits at the heart of the Gospel principle that we are to live our faith, including and especially when leading, not hide it under a basket. Mormonism is in a wholly different arena in the Christian sphere, for it isn’t even technically Christian (while Protestantism is). So yes, a vote for Romney, if one is being honest with himself, is a vote for a non-Christian heretic. And don’t be deluded – unlike many confused Catholics, other religions are not afraid to publicly make known their religious beliefs. The “anomaly” (maybe not) with Romney is that he strongly supports abortion (which the LDS allow) and gay rights and there are YouTube videos of this where he dukes it out in a public debate for Massachusetts candidacy to make himself be seen as more liberal (and thus more worthy) than Ted K. He’s a career politician in that he’ll say whatever it takes. But then again, the LDS church lacks the theological sophistication to even know or accept basic principles like the End does not justify the Means (a principle many religions don’t accept). One consideration we as Catholics need to make is that does electing someone bring popularity to something sinful or wrong? If so, then that’s a strike against it. We all know that electing a Protestant or Catholic politician typically means electing a secularist-hedonist, so there is no new danger there. But electing a Mormon adds the danger of giving Mormonism legitimacy, encouraging people to think it’s “cool” or at least no big deal when it is. It’s equivalent to electing Hugh Hefner and thus giving his business legitimacy, even if he promises to be a ‘conservative’. I'll end with a quote from Pope Leo XIII teaching a dogma of the Faith: There are others [modern day Conservatives], somewhat more moderate though not more consistent, who affirm that the morality of individuals is to be guided by the divine law, but not the morality of the State, for that in public affairs the commands of God may be passed over, and may be entirely disregarded in the framing of laws. Hence follows the fatal theory of the need of separation between Church and State. But the absurdity of such a position is manifest. (Leo XIII, Libertas, 18) - Nick Mon, 13 Jun 2011 17:36:33 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mormonism-catholicism-and-the-romney-candidacy.html#comment-7072 @Seth R., I greatly enjoyed your measured, even responce above, but you lack a foundational, that is to say "basic", understanding of history it seems. May I suggest you pick up the three volume set titled "Faith of the Early Fathers". - Luke Mon, 13 Jun 2011 06:45:43 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mormonism-catholicism-and-the-romney-candidacy.html#comment-7069 Well Richard, as I mentioned earlier - the LDS Church has no doctrine of infallibility - not with regards to prophets, and not with regards to scripture. No doctrine of infallibility. So it is not inconsistent at all to note that Talmage and McConkie got it wrong on one or two particular issues. - Seth R. Mon, 13 Jun 2011 04:33:05 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mormonism-catholicism-and-the-romney-candidacy.html#comment-7068 As a former Mormon who is becoming a Catholic I have a big stake in this conversion. I know Mitt Romney personally and I am very doubtful about his candidacy. He has always been a country club republican like his father. Until he started running for the presidency he was proudly pro-choice and so was his mother when she ran for senate in Michigan in 1970. He is much too slick for my taste. And I do not like those disposed like Romney to moral moderation. On the great moral issues of our time abortion, gay marriage and the collapse of the family I prefer the clarity of Barry Goldwater "Let me remind you that extremism is no vice and moderation is no virtue" . Those here who are defending Mormonism are simply wrong. They proclaim that Talmadge (in works officially published by the LDS church) was wrong when he identified the Catholic church and the whore of Babylon) yet they sustain him and McConkie as "prophets seers and revelators" . It is either right or wrong. You ought to study patristics, philosophy, etc. as I have done and do as a profession. Then you might see that the fundamental Mormon claim of an apostacy is simply indefensible. - Richard Sherlock Sun, 12 Jun 2011 21:05:43 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mormonism-catholicism-and-the-romney-candidacy.html#comment-7067 Well Manred, I don't object to being different. But I would certainly prefer we be described accurately for what we - and our theology - actually ARE. Any posts I made would have been made to that purpose. I should make one clarification. Mormons will almost all tell you that they want to be regarded as "Christian." But don't make the mistake of thinking that means they all want to be "just like you" - they most certainly don't. At least I don't know that many faithful Mormons who do. Howard, I'll certainly disagree that we are "doctrinally deficient." But we can amiably disagree on that point, and I appreciate the fair-mindedness of the rest of your last post. Bruce R. McConkie is an interesting character. He wrote that book before he became an actual LDS apostle - while in the lower "Quorum of the Seventy." I guess the Catholic equivalent might be a something between a Bishop and a Cardinal (if the Catholic Church had 12 apostles in authority over the Cardinals). Several members of the Quorum of the Twelve asked him not to publish that book. They didn't want the membership to have the mistaken impression that the book represented the "last word" on LDS doctrine (turns out such concerns were well-founded). McConkie ignored them and published it anyway. As you note, he was eventually compelled to remove some of the most anti-papist statements from the book in a later version. McConkie is an important figure in Mormon history. I still have a copy of his book Mormon Doctrine that I use as a reference. But I make sure to take his views with a grain of salt and compare them to other authoritative sources. - Seth R. Sun, 12 Jun 2011 18:46:56 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mormonism-catholicism-and-the-romney-candidacy.html#comment-7066 "We are a new world religion in our own right. And if I have my way, we'll stay that way." Thank you finally for your candor. I said essentially the same thing about the LDS in three posts and you seemed to take umbrage. Here is how I was trained: "I want a laity, not arrogant, not rash in speech, not disputatious, but men who know their religion, who enter into it, who know exactly where they stand, who know what they are for and what they are not, who understand their creed so well they can support it, who know so much history they can defend it". The religion of which Cdl. Newman wrote was the True One-Roman Catholicism. Be well, Seth. - Manred Sun, 12 Jun 2011 17:21:00 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mormonism-catholicism-and-the-romney-candidacy.html#comment-7065 @Seth: I come from a family that, on my father's side, is still mostly Mormon. As a child and a young man, I experienced some anti-Catholicism, but nothing extreme. In my research on Mormonism, I found those passages from Nephi very often cited as referring to the Catholic Church. Bruce R. McConkie's 1958 book, Mormon Doctrine, characterizes the Catholic Church as "the most abominable above all churches." But in the revised 1966 edition, references to the Catholic Church as the church of Satan were removed. And I think you are probably right that this vein of viral anti-Catholicism has diminished. I think Mormonism is doctrinally very deficient, and I have argued this point in my recent book, The Existence of God and the Faith-Instinct. But if you take into account the natural law as a basis for judging a person's ethical integrity, I see no "red flags" in Romney's candidacy. It's important to vote, and my choice would depend on the alternatives available. - Howard Kainz Sun, 12 Jun 2011 17:10:40 +0100