Comments for Can We Stop Telling God What To Do? at http://www.thecatholicthing.org , comment 1 to 28 out of 20 comments http://www.thecatholicthing.org Mon, 20 May 2013 10:01:46 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/can-we-stop-telling-god-what-to-do.html#comment-7724 Whoa HV! What beauty and humility in these intercessions! I wonder how many people would understand what they are agreeing to.....but who on earth could disagree with a single one? Thank you for posting this. - debby Sun, 14 Aug 2011 13:19:40 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/can-we-stop-telling-god-what-to-do.html#comment-7713 I love your comment in regards to Byzantine liturgies. It would be better for us to pray for everyone rather than spending time telling God what to do. - Bethanie Ryan Fri, 12 Aug 2011 18:18:27 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/can-we-stop-telling-god-what-to-do.html#comment-7710 @HV Observer, thank you so much. Those are the prayers that are not being prayed @ the Anglican Use Parish of which I'm a member. Perhaps they are not allowed but at least I can ask. @Grump, "No" is a viable answer. Often, it's the best answer too. - Drusilla Fri, 12 Aug 2011 17:10:13 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/can-we-stop-telling-god-what-to-do.html#comment-7709 Great article. I still like to ask god for specific things like getting my marriage to work and my kids to go to mass. I am sure he takes care of things anyway but hopefully it reminds him I still care . I hope he doesn't think I am bossing him about. - James Hughes Fri, 12 Aug 2011 16:38:13 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/can-we-stop-telling-god-what-to-do.html#comment-7708 If I were a bishop, I would order all parishes to have a standardized set of "bidding prayers," as our Anglican colleagues call it. The set I would send them would be "Intercession I" from the Anglican Use Order of Mass, which reads as follows: Intercession I The Celebrant says, Let us pray for the whole state of Christ's Church and the world. The Celebrant, Deacon, or other minister continues, Almighty and everliving God, who in thy holy Word hast taught us to make prayers, and supplications, and to give thanks for all men: Receive these our prayers which we offer unto thy divine Majesty, beseeching thee to inspire continually the Universal Church with the spirit of truth, unity, and concord; and grant that all those who do confess thy holy Name may agree in the truth of thy holy Word, and live in unity and godly love. Give grace, O heavenly Father, to N. our Pope, N. our bishop and to all bishops and other ministers, that they may, both by their life and doctrine, set forth thy true and lively Word, and rightly and duly administer thy holy Sacraments. And to all thy people give thy heavenly grace, and especially to this congregation here present; that, with meek heart and due reverence, they may hear and receive thy holy Word, truly serving thee in holiness and righteousness all the days of their life. We beseech thee also so to rule the hearts of those who bear the authority of government in this and every land, that they may be led to wise decisions and right actions for the welfare and peace of the world. Open, O Lord, the eyes of all people to behold thy gracious hand in all thy works, that, rejoicing in thy whole creation, they may honor thee with their substance, and be faithful stewards of thy bounty. And we most humbly beseech thee, of thy goodness, O Lord, to comfort and succor all those who, in this transitory life, are in trouble, sorrow, need, sickness, or any other adversity. And we also bless thy holy Name for all thy servants departed this life in thy faith and fear, beseeching thee to be merciful and grant them fullness of joy in thy love and service; and to grant us grace so to follow the good examples of the Blessed Virgin Mary and of all thy saints, that with them we may be partakers of thy heavenly kingdom. The Celebrant concludes, Grant these our prayers, O Father, for Jesus Christ's sake, our only Mediator and Advocate. R. Amen. - HV Observer Fri, 12 Aug 2011 13:10:43 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/can-we-stop-telling-god-what-to-do.html#comment-7706 Hey GRUMP, what are you praying for? God moves his arm, if we move our finger....maybe it's something you had to do your part on, and didn't. Maybe it was something that was not good for you or whomever. I did see a poll of Catholics recently in which 81
i;dn't believe prayer made any difference. Christ prayed. He prayed with loud cries and groans, according to his disciples who overheard, and told the Evangelist. Jesus portrayed his own mother (I like to think) as the widow how harassed the unjust judge for Justice, and got what she was asking for because she never let up. GRUMP, I think you need to be more like Job of the Bible, and admit that maybe, just maybe, you are failing in some important aspect of prayer. Pray like the tax collector did: "God, have mercy on me a sinner." - mortimerzilch Fri, 12 Aug 2011 10:42:00 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/can-we-stop-telling-god-what-to-do.html#comment-7704 Randy: And there are the prayer battles. Do you remember this one, in the old chapel at UD in '82 or '83, during the prayer of the faithful? Visiting hippie girl: "That the United States will stop terrorizing other countries with weapons in space." Pause. UD Student: "For the conversion of Russia." Kenneth - Kenneth Covington Fri, 12 Aug 2011 09:59:51 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/can-we-stop-telling-god-what-to-do.html#comment-7703 Find a Tridentine Mass and stay there. Problem solved. - Jason Fri, 12 Aug 2011 08:13:21 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/can-we-stop-telling-god-what-to-do.html#comment-7702 Nice article, but the problem is not the "that" clause. The problem is what follows the "that." When we pray this way: Pray for us O Holy Mother of God, that WE may be made worthy of the promises of Christ. The New Church likes to pray "that God may do blah, blah, blah" WRONG. Pre-Vatican II Church: We asked for help to become Holy and sanctified. Post-Vatican II Church: We pray for God to do what we think is necessary or right. Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, pray for us that WE may open our eyes before it is too late. Pray for us, that we may bear God's wrath with humility and penitence. - Cindy Fri, 12 Aug 2011 05:55:47 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/can-we-stop-telling-god-what-to-do.html#comment-7701 At our local parish we were forever offering "THAT" prayers for political and social issues. A new priest replaced the pastor this year and now the intercessory prayers focus nearly entirely on the sick and the dead. On Memorial Day weekend we prayed for the repose of the souls of all war dead, everywhere. What a breath of fresh air. Our church again feels like a sanctuary (from this and other alterations) rather than all about someone's personal political agenda. - Sandmama Fri, 12 Aug 2011 05:40:33 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/can-we-stop-telling-god-what-to-do.html#comment-7699 My daily prayer life consists of the Holy Rosary, and a few protection of family and friends. It leaves me peaceful enough to trust that God is handling things his way, and that as a mere mortal being, I've done all I can do in this life. - tom loos Fri, 12 Aug 2011 01:57:39 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/can-we-stop-telling-god-what-to-do.html#comment-7698 Well, I'm going to partially disagree with this commentary. I can readily agree that some intercessions seem to have more relation to politics than prayer. Sometimes they seem as though the author..doesn't entirely understand Catholic faith. I must say though, I don't mind a bit of specificity in prayer. Seems to me that we're not precisely handling the problem quite properly here. Instead of praying about "ensuring that we honor the rights of xxx group", if we'd pray that all persons would more thoroughly investigate, contemplate, and assent to the various teachings the Church has to offer, that could accomplish quite a bit of good. I don't care too much for intercessory prayers that name an issue, but don't make any particular request. I've heard prayers asking God to grant wisdom to political leadership; well intentioned, but it seems to forget something: They already HAVE ample wisdom! They've got too much! It'd make more sense if they'd ask God to challenge leaders to consider problems with a Catholic mind. Granted, even that would still create ample dispute, but at least it'd ask for something that could be accomplished. As for the problem related to following the headlines, well, you've got one problem or the other. You can completely ignore world events, thus offering prayers that half the congregation may find wholly irrelevant. OR, you can pay too much attention to the headlines, thereby making half the congregation wonder if you're going to offer a pitch for someone's political rally during the announcements at the end. (Granted, that last has never happened when I've been about, but you catch my thought, I hope.) So while I agree that some intercessions need to be rethought, I think they could be offered more appropriately and still be specific. Otherwise, we may as well not bother with intercessions. BTW, when I took a doctrine class a loooong time ago, I learned the Church DOES have guideline for what should be offered. Usually they want to offer something for the world, something for the Church, and possibly something for the parish/diocese. In any case, fairly short, but fairly understandable works best. - John F Thu, 11 Aug 2011 22:54:07 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/can-we-stop-telling-god-what-to-do.html#comment-7697 From the King's soliloquy in Hamlet, the prayer is right to the point. "For what's in a prayer but this two fold force, To be forestalled ere we come to fall, Or pardoned being down " - Amos Thu, 11 Aug 2011 20:19:35 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/can-we-stop-telling-god-what-to-do.html#comment-7696 Dr. Smith, You are right on the mark. I find myself thinking "let's see what they are going to come up with today..." especially since I am a lector and have to read the intercessory prayers every once in a while (sometimes wishing I could skip over some). I am a Maronite but we don't have Maronite churches in the area. In the Maronite rite, the intercessory prayers are just like what you described in the Byzantine rite- also like the ones on Good Friday in the Latin rite (for everyone so they tend to be long). The response is not "Lord hear our prayer" but "Lord have mercy" "ya rab irham" - MarieT Thu, 11 Aug 2011 15:31:56 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/can-we-stop-telling-god-what-to-do.html#comment-7695 I had to really come to terms with that at church because it was a real distraction from the Mass. I left upset at the liberal agenda being pushed at the MASS! Thanks for this post. - Julie Thu, 11 Aug 2011 12:22:22 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/can-we-stop-telling-god-what-to-do.html#comment-7694 Thank you so much for this down to earth explanation. In my liberal parish I am often struck, by about 50% of the intercessory prayers, that they are political and fad driven. I pause and am skeptical. I feel pangs of irreverence and guilt that to those prayers I give a half hearted Amen if I give one at all, but they really are awkward and I think ultimately irreverent in themselves. Thank you for the alternative prayer, that will help. - Achilles Thu, 11 Aug 2011 10:52:01 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/can-we-stop-telling-god-what-to-do.html#comment-7693 You are so right! The intercessions as used in the old breviary were much better. They presented the need in more general terms and let God decide what to do and how - you know: from earthquakes, protect us O Lord. - Robert Thu, 11 Aug 2011 10:43:06 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/can-we-stop-telling-god-what-to-do.html#comment-7692 Professor Smith, you're correct about the problem with using "that" in intercessory prayers. My favorite bad example remains the sample intercessions that would come from the chancery and begin, "That we might be generous to the second collection for....we pray to the Lord!" Your point about direct address is a little off, however. The minister (deacon or reader) isn't supposed to speak to God, the gathered church is. So the minister speaks to the church and proposes the focus of the intention, "For the church. . ." concluding with this imperative, again addressed to the people, "let us pray to the Lord," or "we pray to the Lord." It is then that the people and ministers together that directly address God, "Lord, hear our prayer!" "Lord, have mercy!" The best examples of intercessory prayer in the Roman rite are those in the liturgy for Good Friday, even though these are a bit lengthier than they would otherwise be, as they are for the second day of the Paschal Triduum. The offering of intercessory prayers in liturgical worship is one of the most important things that baptized people do. That is why is the early church, catechumens (those not yet baptized) were blessed and dismissed from the synaxis after the homily and before the intercessions. Besides not yet able to receive communion, those not yet baptized were not yet invited to pray on behalf of the world and church or share the pax. These are priestly actions reserved to the baptized. The lack of such intercessory prayers, and the exclusion of the laity from the pax, are serious deficiencies of the "TLM." They are not "worrisome insertions" or praying like the Pharisees. - David Philippart Thu, 11 Aug 2011 10:36:44 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/can-we-stop-telling-god-what-to-do.html#comment-7690 Dr. Smith, Go to the TLM and you won't have to worry about this! There is a new parish opening up on the NW side of Houston (run by the FSSP) soon that will only offer the "extraordinary" form of the Mass, so you don't have to concern yourself with worrisome insertions into the liturgy. Best, Amy UST 2005 - Amy (Laschon) Wolfe Thu, 11 Aug 2011 08:22:18 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/can-we-stop-telling-god-what-to-do.html#comment-7689 @ Titus, to a certain extent, those intercessions already exist. Our parish priest (who's half Ukranian Rite as well!), has taken to using the intercessions from the Divine Office from Lauds on the day of the Mass. - chatto Thu, 11 Aug 2011 08:21:22 +0100