Comments for Ordination, Equality, and Natural Law at http://www.thecatholicthing.org , comment 1 to 13 out of 13 comments http://www.thecatholicthing.org Mon, 20 May 2013 03:45:14 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/ordination-equality-and-natural-law.html#comment-7747 duaneo- the piece is an argument by analogy designed to highlight the idea that equality in dignity or essence is not the same equality in function. It wasn't intended as a syllogistic proof against the ordination of women. Nor does it argue Christ's being a man is solely the theological justification for our doctrine. Divine revelation, you are correct, is justification, since this is not a matter of speculative theology. - JD Mon, 15 Aug 2011 19:58:05 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/ordination-equality-and-natural-law.html#comment-7745 While I have no problem with the Church's teaching regarding the ordination of women, I do not accept that it is a valid theological or logical argument that Christ was a man, therefore priests have to be men. Nor does the fact that under the natural law there are differences between men and women offer any insight, because the question is, what differences disqualify women? The fact is that this has been the Church's tradition and teaching throught its history. If you want to be a Catholic you accept that fact. If you don't, go elswhere. It is not helpful, however, to suggest that theology and natural law necessarily validate the tradition and teaching in the sense that they lead to only one inexorable conclusion. - duaneo Mon, 15 Aug 2011 13:00:24 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/ordination-equality-and-natural-law.html#comment-7742 Dental Floss Tycoon, You might want to find a better example. Functionally, I don't see much difference between celibate brothers and nuns. This is not to disparage the Church's teaching; simply to point out that whatever it means to "serve in a nun's role" could also include men. Or, has historically included men. Do the Eastern Churches experience this kind of pressure to change the doctrine of orders? Western intellectualism is so iconoclastic, I guess it's not hard to see why many of our compatriots just don't "get" male orders. - Richard A Mon, 15 Aug 2011 11:01:23 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/ordination-equality-and-natural-law.html#comment-7735 Ken, you are aboslutely right! The Church would not be able to function were it not for the women who serve it therein. But just like each of us have our own role and vocation, so too these women have a calling to serve ... just not in the priesthood. If the Church deems that it is a male's natural role to be priest, just like Mary, these women are called to respond with their own "Fiat;" "Let it be with me according to your word." I often visit the classrooms of the 5 schools connected to our parish, to answer questions about the Catholic faith. Almost every time, one child will ask, "Why can't women be priests?" I often ask them back, "Would you expect that a man could become a nun and serve in a nun's role?" - Dental Floss Tycoon Mon, 15 Aug 2011 07:32:59 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/ordination-equality-and-natural-law.html#comment-7731 Rolando, sounds like someone needs to pick up a history book. The earliest christians had 7 sacraments just as we do, and no wymynpriests or wymynbishops. - jay Mon, 15 Aug 2011 03:49:55 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/ordination-equality-and-natural-law.html#comment-7729 nice article but to put it more simply...men and women are not interchangeable....this is an undeniable fact that we need to refer to for these arguements....easier to understand. - Diane Sun, 14 Aug 2011 18:19:55 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/ordination-equality-and-natural-law.html#comment-7727 How many years after 1995's "Responsum ad Propositum Dubium concerning the Teaching Contained in 'Ordinatio Sacerdotalis'" will certain Protestants state that the Catholic Church invented that doctrine at that time. - Morrie Sun, 14 Aug 2011 15:49:48 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/ordination-equality-and-natural-law.html#comment-7726 I know one thing about Catholic's if it was not for the women in the Church it would not be able to function. Most of these women reflect the sprit of the Holy Mother and love God so much that they are happy to serve in any way they can to futher the Kingdom. Thank God for these wonderful women in many ways they are as important to the Church as our Priests. - Ken Aubrey Sun, 14 Aug 2011 14:06:48 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/ordination-equality-and-natural-law.html#comment-7725 "Memo to Father Roy: The Protestants would love to have you, especially the Episcopalians -- the 'chic' religion of the day." Indeed. The Church either has the authority to teach in Christ's name or it doesn't. You can't have it both ways. Saying on the one hand the Church is right about the Trinity and the Sacraments, but wrong about who can receive one particular Sacrament. Of course no one expects dissidents to leave the Church for a denomination that ordains women, because we know and they know that would be a hollow victory and a failure to make every atom of the universe leftist-progressive. - Scott W. Sun, 14 Aug 2011 13:29:49 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/ordination-equality-and-natural-law.html#comment-7723 Thank you, Dr. Flynn. May I add that the inability of the Church to ordain women has been an explicitly infallible teaching of the Magisterium since the 1995 "Responsum ad Propositum Dubium concerning the Teaching Contained in 'Ordinatio Sacerdotalis'" and reaffirmed in the 1998 "Doctrinal Commentary on the Concluding Formula of the 'Professio Fidei'"? - Martinkus Sun, 14 Aug 2011 12:11:07 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/ordination-equality-and-natural-law.html#comment-7722 "the Blessed Mother, the greatest saint in human history, was not ordained to ministry either" Our Blessed Mother was called by our Father and espoused by the Holy Spirit to become the Mother of the only Son of God. She did not need ordination. God did not ask her to spread the Good News. He asked her if she would be the Bearer of the Good News, Teotokos. Our early Christian family was called to ministry without distinction, for in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jew or Gentile, slaves or free persons, woman or man. (1 Cor. 12:13) We have only one High Priest. Ordained male ministry was introduced to guide and manage a growing faith community. Celibacy came a little later primarily to clarify property rights. "Natural law and divine law give us a deep sense of what is just. Through them and common sense, we recognize that men and women are not the same and cannot always do the same things or serve the same functions." Depending which "natural law" one focuses on, there have been "natural" matriarchies in history, in all species of the animal kingdom, humans included. If anything, it can be said that in nature, males tend to be "drones" and "dominators"; females tend to be "bearers" and "nurturers." This does not mean that fathers can't "mother," nor that mothers can't "father." "In fact, law emphasizes that man [and woman] is [are] made for an eternity in the love of community." God, our Father/Mother, is waiting for all the brothers and sisters of Jesus to come Home. This will happen because one and the same Spirit produces all of the gifts, distributing them individually to each person as [s]he wishes. (1 Cor. 12:11) Paz y Bien, Rolando, SFO. - Rolando Rodriguez, SFO Sun, 14 Aug 2011 11:29:36 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/ordination-equality-and-natural-law.html#comment-7721 It is unfortunate that the church clings to the notion that Jesus ordained the apostles. It is also unfortunate that women use secular arguments regarding equality to the ordination of women. Neither of these arguments apply. Theologically Jesus's teachings do not exclude women from anything. Even Paul cites baptism as making a person completely one with Christ, no longer male or female. Hence the ordination of women is a theological reality, but does not happen in the Catholic church because of politics and power that distort the teaching of Christ and the new testament cannon. There are many women suffering the pain of wasted vocations to the priesthood of Christ! - Alana, South Africa Sun, 14 Aug 2011 11:12:33 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/ordination-equality-and-natural-law.html#comment-7720 Memo to Father Roy: The Protestants would love to have you, especially the Episcopalians -- the 'chic' religion of the day. - Grump Sun, 14 Aug 2011 05:59:01 +0100