Comments for Mary and the Liturgy at http://www.thecatholicthing.org , comment 1 to 13 out of 13 comments http://www.thecatholicthing.org Fri, 24 May 2013 14:07:21 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mary-and-the-liturgy.html#comment-8090 Brenna, "Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary in the Liturgy" is the title of the first chapter of Marialis Cultis(linked in my article). #15 of that same chapter states (remember, this is 1974): " The examination of the revised liturgical books leads us to the comforting observation that the postconciliar renewal has, as was previously desired by the liturgical movement, properly considered the Blessed Virgin in the mystery of Christ, and, in harmony with tradition, has recognized the singular place that belongs to her in Christian worship as the holy Mother of God and the worthy Associate of the Redeemer. It could not have been otherwise. If one studies the history of Christian worship, in fact, one notes that both in the East and in the West the highest and purest expressions of devotion to the Blessed Virgin have sprung from the liturgy or have been incorporated into it." With due regard for the difference between veneration of Mary and adoration of Christ, Vatican II intended to renew our understanding of their interrelation, first of all in the liturgy. That's why I see these two things--the new revision of the texts and a new understanding and acceptance of Mary's role in our life--as the unfinished business of Vatican II's liturgical renewal. I don't think it is a cart and the horse scenario but rather "firing on all cylinders" scenario. - Kristina Johannes Tue, 13 Sep 2011 07:15:34 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mary-and-the-liturgy.html#comment-8083 Eric, When I said, "there are many graces we might not have received had she not intervened on our behalf" I was thinking of what Blessed JPII called the "feminine genius" the special gift of women to anticipate the needs of others, and Mary's maternity. Can't you imagine that Mary, a woman and our Mother, has asked for many things on our behalf that we didn't know we needed? I don't really understand your point about intercessory prayer. It seems that you would deprive it of any meaning. Wouldn't your view turn it into a Divine charade? Yes, God is unchangeable, but somehow in that reality He has willed to reserve certain graces to those situations where we ask for them for ourselves or others. It seems to me it is an indication of the incredible dignity with which He has endowed the human person. Today's readings (Sep 12) were all about intercessory prayer which I found very sweet. What do you think? Do you think that when the schedule of readings was drawn up, somehow God arranged for these for today's date on our behalf? I do and I thank Him for it. He is so tender in His love for us. Finally, I'm not saying, "every grace we receive comes from our making a conscious act of devotion to her." My point about the necessity of devotion to Mary flows from the fourth commandment, "Honor your father and your mother." From the Cross Christ said, "Behold your mother." If we are to honor our earthly mother, how much more must we honor our Mother in the order of grace? How we choose to do so is a matter of individual prudence. - Kristina Johannes Mon, 12 Sep 2011 10:14:39 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mary-and-the-liturgy.html#comment-8073 "Brennan, consider that Mary assisted at the Holy Sacrifice of the Cross which is made present at every celebration of Holy Mass. Hers was the most perfect model of full, active, and conscious participation the world will ever know. If each of us would strive to model her participation and consciously join ourselves to her sweet adoration of Christ, imagine the consequences for liturgical renewal." Hi Kristina, I certainly agree that it would be more than laudatory for all people to imitate Mary's virtues at Mass. However, I would say this would result in a devotional renewal, not necessarily a liturgical one. When I speak of liturgical renewal, I mean specifically the rites of the Church, and not necessarily a man's personal devotion (or lack thereof) at Mass. Although I do believe an improvement (which may mean going back to earlier liturgical practices) in the liturgical rites would lead to a corollary improvement in devotion at Mass. God bless. - Brennan Sun, 11 Sep 2011 23:28:45 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mary-and-the-liturgy.html#comment-8071 Some of what you write, Ms Johannes, borders on the downright superstitious. For example: "There are many graces we might not have received had she not intervened on our behalf." This looks to me to completely misunderstand the nature of intercessory prayer, taking anthropopathic language hyper-literally, presupossing at it does a pagan god that is neither omniscient nor impassible. Intercessory prayer and its "efficacy" are a mystery, but we know what it isn't: it isn't trying to change Zeus's--I mean, God's!--mind by begging Him till He feels sorry for us, and when failing that we get the Johnny Cochrans of the Faith to do what we can't do ourselves. These are precisely the silly caricatures that rightly serve as fodder for unbelievers. Finally, devotion cannot be mandated, let alone legislated. To say that all the graces we receive come through Mary (and indeed, the entire Church, militant *and* triumphant, in Heaven and in the wayfaring state) is far from saying that every grace we receive comes from our making a conscious act of devotion to her or any saint; just as "praying in Jesus' Name" is not only or even necessarily attaching a set of words ("though our Lord Jesus Christ, etc.") at the end of a petition. - Eric Giunta Sun, 11 Sep 2011 19:59:21 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mary-and-the-liturgy.html#comment-8067 Kristina, thank you for a meaningful article! Yes we do agree on that. St. Augustine said “I believe it so I can see it” and if we as faithful Catholics don’t apply St. Augustine’s wise words to the Doctrine and Dogma of Mother Church we are treading on dangerous ground. The appearances of error are Satan’s bread and butter because they play to our intellectual pride. Thank you for your good words, hope to see you on here again soon, Pax Christi, Achilles. - Achilles Sun, 11 Sep 2011 09:27:55 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mary-and-the-liturgy.html#comment-8065 Thank you for sharing that Manfred. You bring up good questions, most definitely not to be answered by dissenting against Vatican II Council. Let’s not quibble about whether or not we need the “MODERN Church” either. There is the Ecclesia and these are modern times, period. I am sure we agree that the state of many in the “Modern Church” is dismal. Many good men and some Popes have said that the devil is in the Church. The attacks on the Church are immense and fairly explained by history from the Renaissance through the Enlightenment, the Industrial revolution, French Revolution and the sheer arrogance of theologian’s in the 60’s and 70’s who felt justified in misinterpreting a legitimate Vatican II Council thus acting on the hermeneutic of rupture. The Traditionalist position is reactionary, and while containing much apparent sense and devotion, it is off kilter. Manfred I too am afraid of hell, it just seems to me that we jeopardize our souls when we dissent against legitimate things of the Church, when there are so many real things we should oppose. IF you don’t differentiate between the Council and the “spirit of Vatican II” you are throwing the baby out with the bath water and that is dangerous thing to do. THe author of dissent is Satan. May Christ’s peace be with you Manfred, Achilles. - Achilles Sun, 11 Sep 2011 07:38:45 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mary-and-the-liturgy.html#comment-8059 Thank you, I appreciate the comments. Brennan, consider that Mary assisted at the Holy Sacrifice of the Cross which is made present at every celebration of Holy Mass. Hers was the most perfect model of full, active, and conscious participation the world will ever know. If each of us would strive to model her participation and consciously join ourselves to her sweet adoration of Christ, imagine the consequences for liturgical renewal. Manfred, I am saying that the necessity of devotion to Mary flows from the nature of the place which God has assigned to her. Those who don't understand that place cannot be held accountable for a lack of veneration, but it seems to me you can't say the same thing for someone who comes to know of the doctrine on Mary yet fails to respond accordingly. Ars, I agree that it is important to see Mary as a real human. What a woman! Howard, to say it is "not optional" is a logical conclusion since God Himself has established the relationship. Leo XIII stated in Octobri Mense, "Thus as no man goeth to the Father but by the Son, so no man goeth to Christ but by His Mother." (4) Evidently Mary can somewhat accomplish her role without our being aware of it, but once we become aware of it, how could it be reasonable to say it is not necessary to acknowledge it and cooperate with it? It would be spurning God's plan. Plus many of the Holy Days of Obligation are Marian and it would seem that the Church is thus requiring our veneration, at least implicitly. Achilles, apparently you and I both find statements against the beautiful teachings of Vatican II painful. There have been so many false interpretations of the documents of Vatican II floating around, it is understandable that people would blame the Council, although as you point out, that is incorrect. It is very consoling to read the documents (and the footnotes!) because you see the continuation of the Faith. - Kristina Johannes Sat, 10 Sep 2011 16:29:21 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mary-and-the-liturgy.html#comment-8058 Achilles: Thank you for your comments. Please re-read Ms. Johannes paragraph five above (it begins: "Experience.." and ends with "..disastrous levels.") and rather than quibble over Vat. II or I.Q. levels, why don't we attempt to determine why "The processions, novenas, rosaries and consecrations of earlier generations have largely fallen by the wayside."? I move that most churchmen and laity no longer believe they play any important role and are merely cultural encrustations. I pray the Rosary and I wear a Miraculous Medal because I fear Hell and temporal punishment, and I believe that Mary will intervene in this world and the next on behalf of those who reach out to her in faith for succor. - Manfred Sat, 10 Sep 2011 15:52:19 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mary-and-the-liturgy.html#comment-8056 Manfred, you appear to be led by the false assumption that Vatican II is the root of all the problems of Mother Church. IT is foolishness and appears to have forced you to ignore much of reality and many historical facts. You have confused evil fruits for root problems. Traditionalists have much to offer, but like any ideology, clinging to rigid notions above data and especially revelation is a form of idolatry. I realize that the temptation for the “more intelligent than average” is an overvaluation of self. Even those of us less gifted in the IQ dept. can see the error clearly. Have you ever read the Vatican II documents? Or did you do a word count and assume ambiguity? There are many more important issues in the Church than the validity of Vatican II that would not be in question but for the arrogance of certain theologians. - Achilles Sat, 10 Sep 2011 11:39:07 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mary-and-the-liturgy.html#comment-8054 St. Louis de Montfort says that devotion to Mary is a sign of predestination -- which is a rather striking claim. But it might be going too far to say that it is "not optional." That's a claim that would need some backing-up. - Howard Kainz Sat, 10 Sep 2011 06:20:02 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mary-and-the-liturgy.html#comment-8053 Mary as the example, par excellence, of willed obedience to God is a subject I have thought about and loved. Her approach of taking important things into her heart and pondering them is one I have attempted to emulate. But I have never, until now, had any sense of Mary as a person. Not, that is, until I began to think of her as a girl whose ancestry would have been apparent; that her appearance would have been self-evidently Semitic, not northern European. For whatever it is worth, this perception has allowed me to visualize Mary as a real person, a Jewish girl, rather than as an idealized image. It has brought her closer. - Ars Artium Sat, 10 Sep 2011 05:03:10 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mary-and-the-liturgy.html#comment-8052 "Devotion to Mary is not optional;..." Why not? Protestants fare pretty well without it. If you discuss Mary in terms of Vatican II you will be greeted with a yawn. You list above all the ills affecting the post- Vat II Church. The Council and all that followed is suspect. What focused Catholics in the past were "parish missions" where Jesuits and Dominicans spoke of Death, Judgement, Heaven or Hell. Devotion to Mary flowed from her approved apparitions where her message was consistent with the eschatology I just described. At Fatima, Mary reminded the world that Hell exists and people (souls?) go there. The reason the Church is shrinking today is because Hell has been quietly removed and we find we really don't need the MODERN Church. - Manfred Sat, 10 Sep 2011 02:09:53 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/mary-and-the-liturgy.html#comment-8051 I enjoyed this article. It is refreshing and actually encouraging to hear a frank assessment and description of the plummeting in pretty much every area of the Church's life, including devotion to Mary, after Vatican II. Much better than the Pollyanna "happy talk" we usually get about "Well, gee, things are always tough after a Council." Or telling us we are in a springtime of renewal when almost every indicator points to the fact that we are not. And I agree that devotion to Mary is a good barometer the how healthy the life of the Church is. Yet I wonder if the article puts the cart before the horse? On the one hand, we should encourage devotion to Mary at every possible chance, yet perhaps it is returning to a devout, reverent and transcendent liturgy which will foster greater devotion to Mary. I mean, if we have a liturgy which does not lift our hearts and minds to God, but instead keeps them stuck in the everyday, mundane world because of its banality, then how are people going to ushered into a supernatural world and atmosphere where devotion to Mary is of critical importance? Unless of course they simply do it on their own? Well, good article and God bless. - Brennan Sat, 10 Sep 2011 00:04:10 +0100