Comments for “Conscience” in a Culture without Truths? at http://www.thecatholicthing.org , comment 1 to 15 out of 15 comments http://www.thecatholicthing.org Wed, 22 May 2013 02:30:54 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/conscience-in-a-culture-without-truths.html#comment-8106 Fpr M: No apologies were needed here--the response on James Madison was stirred by the comment that derided Madison. I would join the derision in part, but not in Madison's understanding of what we mean by "religion." I'm glad,though, that you told me more about what you meant by a talk on MP3 --I gathered that you were giving a compliment, but I couldn't tell what lecture or talk of mine you were marking. It looks like you're referring to a talk I did in a program honoring Robby George, but not at Princeton--this was at Union University in Tennessee. I was called in to speak in place of Fr. Neuhaus, who had just died. I didn't know that the talk was available online somewhere. And you say that the link could be found at the website for the James Madison Program. I don't recall now exactly what I was saying then, and so I'll have to listen myself. Thanks for the lead--and the plug. And thanks too for Tony for that fine commentary, which really extended my piece, and bore in a telling way on the recent ceremonies in commemorating 911. - Hadley Arkes Wed, 14 Sep 2011 04:48:44 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/conscience-in-a-culture-without-truths.html#comment-8104 I second Professor Arkes' comments above. My study of cultures from ancient Mesopotamia through the Renaissance suggests that people are never really united by a common pursuit of pleasures, or a shared material benefit, but only by those things that pierce to the deepest core of our beings. Nothing else but a shared participation in a transcendent good can ever unite men of radically different tastes and temperaments and education and wealth. That is a plain fact. A wholly secular city ceases to be what the Romans called a civitas and the Greeks called the polis; it degenerates into a densely populated geographical area, with not much to bring people together. Witness the symbolically and historically barren commemoration of 9-11; individual stories, yes, but no shared meaning, no larger context, no anchor in truths that our forebears held sacred. The "secular city" is a contradiction in terms, as is "secular humanism." - Tony Tue, 13 Sep 2011 20:04:01 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/conscience-in-a-culture-without-truths.html#comment-8103 Apologies Prof. Arkes, my experience of trying to comment on essays like yours is one of intimidation. One wants to comment intelligently and add to the discussion but my learning is lacking. At best I can acknowledge one or two concepts to indicate that something is being cogitated. Perhaps that is all you can expect? It will trickle down into our understanding eventually. The James Madison link was something much more trivial than you were able to glean. It was only to indicate where someone could hear you lecture. It was 'Making Men Moral' for the Robbie George lead James Madison Program at Princeton. Again apologies. - M. Tue, 13 Sep 2011 19:16:54 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/conscience-in-a-culture-without-truths.html#comment-8102 The comments collected here have an almost random character, for most of them bear little relation to the argument in my piece. James Madison is probably responsible for a good measure of the fallacies that have crept into our law and public discourse on religion. But his understanding of religion as focus on our relations to our Creator and the duties we owe him--that coincides quite well with the understanding contained in the Declaration of Independence. It states an understanding that serves well as the understanding at the core of that regime brought forth in the Declaration. It is far better than any definition that seems to command assent in our current, distracted culture. Madison's understanding was reiterated over a hundred years later by the great Justice Stephen Field in one of the Mormon cases, Davis v. Beason in 1890. Something must have crept into the airconditioning when Still Anonymous read Fr. Neuhaus's essay on whether atheists can be good citizens. If by a "citizen" we merely mean one who obeys the laws, that is not exactly a morally elevated standing--it is hardly higher than that of a resident in a hotel. But if by a "citizen" we mean a person who understands the principles that define the character of that regime he respects, the regime that has won his allegiance, then he should be in a position to render a moral defense of that regime. To the extent that the atheist insists on denying any moral order or truths that command his respect as truths, he cannot fill the moral demands that attach to a "good citizen." - Hadley Arkes Tue, 13 Sep 2011 17:58:53 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/conscience-in-a-culture-without-truths.html#comment-8101 @still anonymous. Bunk! On every measure believers are better citizens. Just last week Putnam's book and comprehensive surveying was reported in the media. And Vox Day in the first chapter of his "The Irrational Atheist" with UK prison statistics shows unbelievers a whopping four times more likely to be criminal. By selecting only those who identify as the high church version of philosophical atheism as if it were the whole cohort of unbelief atheists distort the true picture of unbelief's social affects. But we don't need statistics to begin with; who could seriously question whether the sanction (what happens to you if reject the good), the inspiration (why do the good) and the content (what is the good) that Jesus Christ reveals is superior as a moralising belief system? Is there any doubt what the world would be like if everyone were a committed disciple of Christ? A planet of saints? Fr Neuhaus states a simple truth – a citizenry unfamiliar with the sources of the rights we enjoy cannot be expected to act in ways that tend to preserve these rights. Mark Steyn's bitter experience with a people who no longer respect freedom of speech. - M. Tue, 13 Sep 2011 16:02:19 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/conscience-in-a-culture-without-truths.html#comment-8100 @Still Anonymous: How have unbelievers out-performed believers? Many colleges, hospitals and other beneficial institutions have been founded by religious denominations. These over time may be corrupted by tenured professors who do not share the beliefs of the founders of the institutions. Where are the colleges, maternity homes and hospitals founded by atheists? TeaPot562 - TeaPot562 Tue, 13 Sep 2011 14:56:21 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/conscience-in-a-culture-without-truths.html#comment-8099 I have to second Michael's "Huh?" - Brad Miner Tue, 13 Sep 2011 14:14:59 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/conscience-in-a-culture-without-truths.html#comment-8098 Re: Still Anonymous Huh? - MIchael Tue, 13 Sep 2011 14:10:41 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/conscience-in-a-culture-without-truths.html#comment-8096 Both abortion and sodomy are mere wedge issues that give those who want to destroy Christian civilization a sense of moral superiority and an excuse to painst Chrstians as bigots. The unwitting fellow travelers believe they have taken the moral high ground of social justice and that the ignorant Christian reactionies are on the side of injustice. Now that widespared racism and abuse of woekrs are no longer credible, the cause of sympathy for those whom Christianty would deny the pleasures of martical love, along with the right to destroy incovenient lives, have become the centerpieces by which Armicans identify themselves as enlightened and humane. Millions of Americans who believe that sodomy is not natural, healthy, or moral are afraid to tell the truth for fear of being disowned by their on families and even their pastors who have re-invented Chritianity. I know I am not the only TCT reader who has been castigated by a priest for reminding others what Holy Mother Chruch inerrantly teaches on thess matters. So afraid are such people of being accused of being agasint social justice that they are willing to mislead the flocks entrusted to thei care rather than incur the scorn of Aermica's soi-dissant intelligentsia. - Thoms C. coleman, Jr. Tue, 13 Sep 2011 10:59:39 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/conscience-in-a-culture-without-truths.html#comment-8095 That's funny, M. It seems that in every regard, from criminality, to divorce, stable family environment, and other areas that are ostensibly of concern to the "family values" crowd, unbelievers outperform believers of every stripe. Someone had better notify unbelievers that Fr. Neuhaus has declared they cannot be good citizens, because they are *really* acting out of character here. - Still Anonymous Tue, 13 Sep 2011 10:53:55 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/conscience-in-a-culture-without-truths.html#comment-8094 Careful in your evangelizing of the past. Madison made no public mention of his faith after he chose to pursue the law in 1773. Any private mention is hearsay, and most paint a picture of a reservedly spiritual man at that. There is as much evidence that he was a Deist after 1773, as there is that he was a Christian. - Robert Tue, 13 Sep 2011 09:03:38 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/conscience-in-a-culture-without-truths.html#comment-8091 Forcing people to act against their conscience is one of the hallmarks of tyranny. - Other Joe Tue, 13 Sep 2011 07:38:09 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/conscience-in-a-culture-without-truths.html#comment-8089 Oh and Prof. Arkes rocks. Infant born alive. And you can tell too by his voice/manner. (James Madison Program mp3) - M. Tue, 13 Sep 2011 06:36:27 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/conscience-in-a-culture-without-truths.html#comment-8088 The unbeliever cannot be a "good citizen". Fr Neuhaus. "Ethics is transcendental" Wittgenstein. - M. Tue, 13 Sep 2011 03:50:57 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/conscience-in-a-culture-without-truths.html#comment-8087 I think the question is: why has abortion become the sine qua non? A recent report stated that members of a large minority group in this country are no longer choosing to marry. Still fecund, they are having children who are being raised by single mothers with modest or no incomes. Their outlook is bleak. The gov't., rather than face being responsible for millions of more wards to care for, such as the American Indian at present, is resorting to this extreme in order to protect itself from these enormous costs. I don't defend this, I am merely explaining the cause. By the way, who was the governor of MA when same-sex "marriage" was signed into law? - Manfred Tue, 13 Sep 2011 02:03:26 +0100