Comments for Revelation, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium at http://www.thecatholicthing.org , comment 1 to 15 out of 15 comments http://www.thecatholicthing.org Fri, 24 May 2013 17:10:38 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/revelation-sacred-tradition-and-the-magisterium.html#comment-9739 Authority decides on disputes. I always imagine two Sola Scriptura(ists) having prayed to the Holy Spirit but having disagreed on their infallible interpretation of a verse in the Bible, they then stare at the Bible as it just sits there. If only it could speak. If only the Author (in the word Authority) could explain what he meant by the passage, the dispute would be resolved. - morrie Fri, 03 Feb 2012 03:19:45 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/revelation-sacred-tradition-and-the-magisterium.html#comment-8155 Ben Horvath You are right. When the Monophysite heretic Eutiches protested that the language of the Council of Chalcedon was not to be found in Holy Scrtipture, the papal legates retorted, "Neither is the ὁμοούσιος [the "one in Being" of the Nicene Creed] to be found in Scripture, but in the Holy Fathers, who well understood and faithfully expounded them." - Michael PS Mon, 19 Sep 2011 02:46:17 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/revelation-sacred-tradition-and-the-magisterium.html#comment-8152 Interesting article. According to JH Newman, one of the tricks the Arians used to prevent opposition to their disgusting heresy and to disfigure the truth was to insist that only 'Biblical' language to describe Christ. Therefore the sophisticated philosophical language used to describe our Lord's incarnation could not be used - those words weren't in the Bible! - Ben Horvath Sun, 18 Sep 2011 17:34:09 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/revelation-sacred-tradition-and-the-magisterium.html#comment-8146 Manfred, on second thought, my credentials would be an utter waste of your time. How about the cliff notes and hopefully we can remain amicable despite the canyon of difference between us. I am an incorrigible sinner whom God, out of his infinite mercy, has called out of darkness. I come from a family of invincible ignorance and nearly supernatural pride and arrogance. God has sent an army to help me, from my confirmation Saint Augustine, my guardian angel, the Church Doctors and Saints, to countless people in my parish to confirm and reaffirm Christ’s gospel. I am humiliated more than I ever thought possible and for the first time in my life as I wallow in the mud in abject misery of which I am the architect, in my heart is a joy I could have never imagined. - Achilles Sat, 17 Sep 2011 11:47:31 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/revelation-sacred-tradition-and-the-magisterium.html#comment-8145 Dear Manfred, Thank you for the book recommendation. You and I would agree that the innovations are, as our Holy Father explains, the “hermeneutic of Rupture.” There is no doubt about that. Your credentials are very impressive, I am joyful to hear that all your children attend weekly mass and frequent confession. Congratulations on raising good kids in bad times, something all too rare today. My comments to you are about your comments and the appearance that you dissent from a legitimate council when it might benefit you to oppose the innovations and perversions instead of the Council itself. My credentials? I would be happy to tell you, but it would be even ruder if I posted it here. If you would like to email me go to amazon.com and search Achilles, my email address is there. Manfred, there is no doubt that you are by far the better man, and quite honestly, I have no real right to comment on your comments as you are not only my elder, but my superior in intellect, faith and devotion. I will be doubly pained if I am wrong about how I see your comments, but on the off chance I am not completely wrong, maybe you will consider the possibility that some of your statements are reactionary. I wouldn’t disagree with a single point of the Doctrine and Dogma of Mother Church, or of Her traditions, or the Magisterium or with the legitimate councils. I am suggesting, not that you give up anything but that you take on more by putting the Vatican Council II in its proper order and recognize the real factors behind Satan’s influence inside the Church. It is a win win and the only sacrifice would be personal pride, unless of course I have misunderstood you, then I would be an even bigger idiot than I had suspected. Augustine also said "credo ut intelligam" Pax Christi tecum, Achilles - Achilles Sat, 17 Sep 2011 11:07:44 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/revelation-sacred-tradition-and-the-magisterium.html#comment-8141 Thank you Mr. Beckwith for your column, As we know Faith and Reason go together.But we can think ourselves out of our faith.As we see everything is fine when his disciples see him cure the blind,heal the sick,raise the dead.But when he says"Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you will not have eternal life." Not many stayed for the answer,they reasoned themselves out of their faith.A question for our Bible alone brothers,Christ died 2000 years ago,"How is it possible that he died an rose again, an him in heaven at the right hand of his father, how we are to eat his flesh an drink his blood?.Did he not say at the last supper "This is my body this is my blood"This is why today we can relie on his words that in the EUCHARIST we eat the body,blood soul and divinity of Christ.Please don,t think ourselfs out of our faith. GOD BLESS YOU ALL. - JOSEPH Sat, 17 Sep 2011 07:35:25 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/revelation-sacred-tradition-and-the-magisterium.html#comment-8139 Achilles: Since you are recommending books, why don't you pick up: Vatican Council II, a Debate That Has Not Taken Place by Msgr. Brunero Gherardini? He asks how the innovations introduced at Vat. II have ANYTHING to do with the traditional Magisterium of the Church. Ben XVI cites the "Hermeneutic of Rupture" in a famous 2005 sermon when he refers to the same innovations. BTW, I have raised seven children during the last fifty years-three of whom attend traditional chapels-all of whom attend weekly Mass and frequent confession. Why don't you share your credentials with us? - Manfred Sat, 17 Sep 2011 04:46:51 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/revelation-sacred-tradition-and-the-magisterium.html#comment-8137 "When the Marcionites, Valentinians, and the like," says Origen, "appeal to apocryphal works, they are saying, 'Christ is in the desert;' when to canonical Scripture, 'Lo, He is in the chambers;' but we must not depart from that first and ecclesiastical tradition, nor believe otherwise than as the Churches of God by succession have transmitted to us." - Michael Paterson-Seymour Sat, 17 Sep 2011 03:55:11 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/revelation-sacred-tradition-and-the-magisterium.html#comment-8130 "Credo ut intelligam," says St. Anselm. After faith, comes the rational process of understanding, as much as possible, the revealed truths. St. Augustine's multiple attempts to develop analogies to the Trinity are a good example. St. Thomas Aquinas used Aristotle and Plato and Maimonides and others to clarify the meaning of revealed truths. It would be a bit difficult to use Kant or Nietzsche of Sartre and many other philosophers for this purpose. I would except Hegel, whose philosophical analyses of the the Genesis account of creation, the Atonement, the Incarnation, the Virgin Birth, etc. earned him the title of the "Protestant Aquinas" from Karl Barth. - Howard Kainz Fri, 16 Sep 2011 14:41:11 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/revelation-sacred-tradition-and-the-magisterium.html#comment-8129 Prof. Beckwith, Thanks very much for your outstanding column. I am not schooled in Theology or Philosophy, but a few years ago, as I got older, (63) I started to investigate my Church. I did not realize how many discussions on the definition of the Trinity, and of how to read scripture. Using the internet, I have read some of our Popes' writings and if I follow slowly and use google, and dictionaries, and prayer I have found them fascinating, as these learned men slowly explain the Revealed words of God. I have fell back in love with my church. - Bill Walker Fri, 16 Sep 2011 13:29:46 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/revelation-sacred-tradition-and-the-magisterium.html#comment-8127 I am a Protestant and am no expert on the Reformation so I may not be reading the reformers correctly here. But my sense is that when they insisted upon sola scriptura they were not saying that one couldn't also use philosophy in the attempt to understand or communicate Holy Scripture better...any more than they were not saying that one couldn't use good preaching to understand Scripture better. Surely they would have agreed on "Scripture Plus" many things. Scripture plus philosophy, Scripture plus preaching, Scripture plus 'good exegesis' (Calvin quoted Augustine constantly), Scripture plus ordained church leaders' use of discipline, etc. Holy Scripture must be understood, and the Spirit uses many different means to bring the truth of Scripture into an individual Christian's head and life. But the reformers wanted to distinguish between Scripture's authority and all derivative authorities. As important as they held the historic creeds to be, they still distinguished them from Holy Scripture: Holy Scripture is God's Word; the Nicene Creed is not God's Word. Holy Scripture is God's Word; Holy Tradition is not God's Word. I think Roman Catholics and Protestants would agree: *theoretically* the Nicene Creed could be revised/improved/changed. It's theoretically possible that the Church could one day see fit to change one word in the Nicene Creed in a way that she thought more accurate and helpful (e.g. filioque?). But if such a change were ever to take place, it would be by using Holy Scripture as the measure. But it is not even theoretically possible for Christians to change Holy Scripture. For Scripture is God's unique revelation to us, to *some* degree in a different way than any creed is. Holy Scripture stands below, is foundational to, the Nicene Creed; the Nicene Creed does not stand below, is not foundational to, Holy Scripture. In coming to understand what Holy Scripture teaches, Christians must of course use their reason. We need philosophy. We need preachers. We need Tradition. We need the best commentaries. Amen. But I don't think any of this conflicts with affirming sola scriptura. - Kevin Offner Fri, 16 Sep 2011 12:47:19 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/revelation-sacred-tradition-and-the-magisterium.html#comment-8126 One of your main points, Professor Beckwith, is an important one; but it is not made clearly in the column. You try to explain, I believe, that the truths of the philosophical sciences can aid in explaining the truths of theology. This is certainly the case; and the Church has, as you note, used these sciences, especially physics and metaphysics, in this way since the time of its earliest ecumenical councils. The service that the philosophical sciences give to theology is not, however, one of helping to “extract doctrine from Scripture,” precisely speaking. The content of theology (i.e., its doctrines or dogmas and the conclusions reached from them) comes from divine revelation, and not in any way from the philosophical sciences (see ST Ia, I.1). Each science has its proper and separate area or object of inquiry (i.e., the world revealed by rational inquiry for the philosophical sciences and the world revealed by God for theology). The truths of theology are determined apart from philosophy, but philosophy can aid in helping to explain the rationality or possibility of these truths (i.e., it can help to defend these truths against criticism). The philosophical sciences cannot, of course, prove the truths of theology. - Peregrinus Fri, 16 Sep 2011 12:28:07 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/revelation-sacred-tradition-and-the-magisterium.html#comment-8125 Professor Beckwith, I wish you had been my RCIA teacher, we had a leader still trying to live out the glory days of woodstock. Manfred, your apparent myopia is impressive. I highly question your use of the word 'educated'. You must mean you attended school, Mass and perhaps university before Vatican II. Life in the Church was far from perfect 50 years ago. There is a book called Liberalism is a Sin, you can read it for free, just google it. Read at least the intro, it was written well over 100 years ago and it was attacked by liberals all the way to the Vatican. You must also read, Popes against the Modern Errors. A wonderful collection of beautiful encyclicals warning us of the dangers of modernism. These two books alone, if read properly, have the potential to disabuse you of some of your ideological catch phrases that seem to prevent you from full assent. However, there are many sources, and very credible ones, that illustrate the philosophical and societal geneology of our monstrous condition today. It has much less to do with Vatican II than you can imagine. - Achilles Fri, 16 Sep 2011 11:09:21 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/revelation-sacred-tradition-and-the-magisterium.html#comment-8124 Would that the Magisterium enhanced its God-given authority by making explicit (1) that the doctrines it teaches are objectively true and 2) its prudential judgments and social analyses are not authoritative thereby reserving its most authoritative tone for teaching Revealed truth. - Martinkus Fri, 16 Sep 2011 08:14:19 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/revelation-sacred-tradition-and-the-magisterium.html#comment-8121 Thank you Prof. Beckwith. As someone trained and educated in the preconciliar Church, I found it interesting to read on philosophy in the Church with nary a mention of Thomism, as Thomism was the philosophy of the Church as Pope Leo XIII insisted on it. If Thomism were still vibrant, do you think you would have Catholic apologists for same-sex intimacy or marriage? Forget the first six centuries as important as those Councils were: the Catholic world of fifty years ago had very clear rules. The non-Catholic "christian" churches were understood to be populated with people who either rejected or could not live by those rules. The proof was evident when, at the time of the Council's reach-out, many/most Protestant "churches" began to ordain women, after 5,670 years of Judaeo-Catholic male priesthood. That is the central argument of pre-conciliar Catholics-the Church has been incoherent for fifty years. - Manfred Fri, 16 Sep 2011 02:09:50 +0100