Comments for RCIA Dismay at http://www.thecatholicthing.org , comment 1 to 31 out of 20 comments http://www.thecatholicthing.org Thu, 23 May 2013 09:36:24 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/rcia-dismay.html#comment-15450 I, am very happy I found this site...over the last few weeks we have come back here many times...going over the posts...this has helped us to hang in the R.C.I.A. process....we also bought the book, The Everlasting Man and The fulfillment of Desire....we are on track...glad it will come to a End soon...Liz - Liz Mon, 21 Jan 2013 07:41:17 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/rcia-dismay.html#comment-15059 I, have to say we Love the Mass at this church...although we are used to High Church, this does fit us....I am just so very saddened by the treatment that people in this class are getting.....we were told by the Deacon when we had to meet with him that there was ONLY...one boat into the catholic church....from my research I am finding that not to be the case....all people are individual on the journey...this all has been very difficult on us for we all have circumstances in our lives that need to be tended too.....time will tell....I really just want to bail out of the class and go to church....Liz - Liz Mon, 24 Dec 2012 05:49:18 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/rcia-dismay.html#comment-15050 Dear Liz: I hope you signed up to receive notice of of comments to the column you just commented on, because I want both to sympathize with you and encourage you. Although I became Catholic many years ago, I only received Confirmation about a year ago. As I went through the catechetical process, I was sometimes impatient. But then I recalled the words of Jesus to his cousin, John the Baptist, when John counted himself unworthy to Baptize the Lord: "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." - Brad Miner Sun, 23 Dec 2012 17:08:26 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/rcia-dismay.html#comment-15047 I, myself am a comming home Catholic...who has spent about 30 years in the Episcopal Church....when I told my husband I was going home, he wanted to become a Catholic...he was raised in the Episcopal Church and was always a churchgoer....I, have a very hard time being in this R.C.I.A. process...I am the sponor for my husband....cannot understand WHY they give Communion to a 2nd grader and not a grown man who is a good Christian....it seems we are being talked down to all the time....I do not need to be told to say Merry Christmas or Happy Holiday...this should not even be in the program...seems like people opinions...they do not seem to understand that this process is TOO long.......seems at times we are hanging in by a thread. we have to sit up front in the first three pews....I do think we can think for ourselves. - Liz Sun, 23 Dec 2012 08:23:57 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/rcia-dismay.html#comment-9213 Great article. I'm going through RCIA right now and frankly it's boring. I was baptized and confirmed as a Presbyterian, have read the Bible cover to cover many times... and the RCIA class often feels like it's for elementary aged kids who have never heard of Jesus or the Bible before. I know the instructors mean well, and I do otherwise enjoy their company, so I feel bad about complaining. I am pretty familiar with what is orthodox and I don't think there have been any bad doctrines taught. I honestly think I could have gotten everything I needed in a few short weeks, rather than spending a huge chunk of my Sundays doing RCIA (I leave my house at 8am and don't get back until noon!). I concur with what somebody else here said about doing it out of obedience. Once I can take communion I don't think I'll be going back even though they want us to stay on for a few weeks after. - Gwenevere Thu, 15 Dec 2011 20:21:47 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/rcia-dismay.html#comment-8225 Phil D, you can not serve two masters. Dante iiad "peace only in God's will" He does not bend to us, we bend to Him. If one wants Truth to bend to himself, the Catholic Church is the wrong place for that, there are 40,001 other choices for that. - Achilles Thu, 22 Sep 2011 18:46:51 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/rcia-dismay.html#comment-8212 I also endured a rather lame RCIA program 6 years ago. Our RCIA director was an ex-nun who moaned that we wouldn't see women priests in our lifetime. She eulogized the feminist Betty Friedan (because of her, all you women in this class can wear pants) but denigrated the late Pope John Paul II as being "like a rock star." - Randall Thu, 22 Sep 2011 04:22:08 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/rcia-dismay.html#comment-8204 "I have no problems, ultimately, with joining hands and singing "Kumbaya," as long as the faith isn't mistaken for a "feeling." Christian faith is more akin to an intellectual conviction than an emotional "feeling." It is a conviction inspired by divine charity, and sealed in hope." Indeed, but experience is not feeling and we have excellent and challenging writers, especially now, when good editions of of Tauler and Ruysbroeck; of “The Cloud of Unknowing,” and of Walter Hilton’s works. St Francis de Sale's Introduction to the Devout Life and his Treatise on the Love of God would be a good introduction - Michael Paterson-Seymour Wed, 21 Sep 2011 04:41:18 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/rcia-dismay.html#comment-8203 I became a Catholic in 2002, and by the time I was finally confirmed (in 2004) I had sampled 3 different RCIA programs, the good, the bad, and the mediocre. By the end I basically considered it an exercise in obedience to endure. - Heather F Wed, 21 Sep 2011 02:09:22 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/rcia-dismay.html#comment-8200 I have a stereoscopic vision of the Catholic Church in North America, spending all summer in the diocese of Antigonish, in Nova Scotia. There, Catholic instruction is minimal, soft-heretical, and intellectually vapid. That includes, unfortunately, the training given to a whole generation of priests. It is absolutely essential that Catholics reclaim the high intellectual ground, first, because our opponents SEEM to be intelligent sorts although they are deeply ignorant, and second, because God created us with minds, to know and to love the truth; and we want the most passionate lovers of truth to be our leaders, intellectual and spiritual. My reversion to the faith occurred in college when a professor of Renaissance literature kept recommending the work of Saint Augustine. I read the Confessions and was enthralled -- not by the autobiography at first, but by the subtle and penetrating discussions of form and matter, creation and memory, and time and eternity. You will not drive people away with works of powerful intellect and beauty. You will drive people away -- or, worse, fail to attract them in the first place -- with the slipshod, the silly, and the effete. One might ask how many people have been brought into the church by the powerful writings of our last two popes, and how many people have drifted away because of the lame witness of our foolish bishops. - Tony Tue, 20 Sep 2011 16:14:35 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/rcia-dismay.html#comment-8199 Gospel Distortion There is a prevailing notion today that the grace of God is about affirmation, not transformation. Someone said to me, "I go to my church because I get affirmed just as I am." Does the grace of God mean that God simply affirms us in our racist, sexist and self-serving attitudes without being called to change? If God's grace simply affirms us as we are and doesn't change us, then it is cheap grace. Bonhoeffer says, 'Cheap grace is the preaching of forgiveness without requiring repentance, baptism without church discipline, communion without confession, absolution without personal confession. Cheap grace is grace without discipleship, grace without the Cross, grace without Jesus Christ - living and incarnate.' We are invited to come to God just as we are, but we should not expect to remain just as we are. God's love changes us, God's love takes us and then turns us upside down. God's love sets us free for the service of God. God's grace and love enable us to 'love what God commands and desire what God promises.' The Gospel is about an affirmation which transforms us! -Source Unknown - Alicia Tue, 20 Sep 2011 16:00:39 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/rcia-dismay.html#comment-8197 With 17 responses you seem to have hit a nerve, Prof. Smith. This R.C.I.A. shallowness is deliberate as both apologetics and scholasticism (Thomism) were quietly removed from Catholic training after the Council. Catholicism has become whatever the person subjectively wants it to be. A friend of mine, both a brilliant lawyer and a Biblical scholar, agreed to teach catechetics for school children preparing for Confirmation as his children were entering that age. His class is held in the hall beneath the Church in about one quarter of the hall, the rest being darkened. His preparation includes videos from Ignatius Press as well as handouts of his writings as well as the Fathers. He realized that the parents, instead of just dropping the children off to be picked up later, were actually sitting in the darkened portion of the hall enthralled by what they were seeing/hearing. They never knew the facts he was presenting to their own children. They had never been catechized and they never knew they weren't truly Catholic! - Manfred Tue, 20 Sep 2011 12:19:08 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/rcia-dismay.html#comment-8196 It's about time that someone wrote on this topic. It is long overdue. Thank you so much, Mr. Smith. The state of the RCIA is, for the most part, abominable. I pray hard for our sons and our friends to come to the love and knowledge of our Lord and the Faith, but then i ask myself, "What will they run into in the RCIA program?, and I shudder. That said, there is no reason why anyone should lack a thorough indoctrination in the Faith with the number of excellent books on the market today. My goodness, our Holy Father's work, alone, could fill several bookshelves, and I don't think there is any reason to question his orthodoxy. My husband and I had no real instruction in the Faith in 1971 (no RCIA then). We left 10 years later and returned 21 years after that, still with no formal instruction, but the books kept piling up from the books that I bought from the rack in the vestibule of the church. As for classes, I want to see credentials before I attend--no matter how devout the instructor. It's those Q&A sessions that are so destructive, I think, especially when the instructor has no credentials to back up his "This is the way it is." - Louise Tue, 20 Sep 2011 11:58:30 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/rcia-dismay.html#comment-8195 Some comments by the author: I have not called for "the death" of anything. That implication was read into the article. If a parish has a wonderful RCIA program, God bless them. Given the desire expressed in my article for good catechesis, I could have nothing but the highest praise for them. Thank you, God, for good RCIA programs. We desperately need more of them. And God bless you, good RCIA directors and teachers. I'm sorry you have to do so much and take on so much responsibility, but the work is much and the laborers are few. Those who have had good RCIA experiences, however, or who have worked as members of the RCIA "team," might wish to consider the many complaints voiced by the other respondents. Bad formation programs are not a universal problem, but they are, let us say, not uncommon. As for the "many paths" complaint and that some might "run" from Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine, two things. First, those who are seriously interested in the Catholic faith do not run from the best of the saints. They just don't. They may find them dry and difficult to read --- we all do at times --- but they do not run from them. If they do run from the saints, then something else is at work that needs fixing. Let's remember, of all books the Bible is certainly the one that can at times be the most dry and difficult to read. We don't advise avoiding it, do we? (We shouldn't.) Second, I'm always struck by the complaint that "not everyone likes Aquinas" not only for the reason I suggested above, but because it often comes from people who deny Aquinas to people who want to read him. It's one thing to say that, "Some people want Aquinas, and some people want coloring book catechism for twelve-year olds, so we have to provide for both," except (A) we're only providing the second and never the first, and (B) I don't really believe that the sort of "soft" preparation being suggested is the way to prepare Catholics to enter into the secular culture of 21st century America. When people have high levels of secular learning and very low levels of understanding of their faith, in a pinch, people go with what they know, and in the end, they will be dominated by their secular perspectives alone. I have no problems, ultimately, with joining hands and singing "Kumbaya," as long as the faith isn't mistaken for a "feeling." Christian faith is more akin to an intellectual conviction than an emotional "feeling." It is a conviction inspired by divine charity, and sealed in hope. Christians in the early Church didn't offer themselves up to be food for lions because they of a "feeling." They were convinced of the truth of something vital: something larger than life, something for which they were willing to give their lives. Finally, there was wisdom in the early Church about drawing people in gentle stages to ever deeper encounters with the Triune God. New converts tend to say foolish things. I know; I was one. Catechism should be entrusted not to the beginners, but to those who are far along the path of Wisdom. - Randall Smith Tue, 20 Sep 2011 11:57:51 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/rcia-dismay.html#comment-8193 I take tremendous issue with this article. The program at our parish is vibrant and wonderful. It is largely run by the volunteers that make up our team. The priest rarely gives the presentation, but that is as it should be. We turn no one down for entrance into the program, and leverage our sponsors as a tool to engage those who can not be at every meeting. We bend to the needs of our prospective parishioners so that they can come into the faith in the best possible time and way. We care deeply about the RCIA process and produce active members of our parish, fully involved and well catechized. The blanket statements in this article and the following commentary are appalling. Not only is there a problem with the general dismissal of the program, but saying that a person recently called into the faith is no authority is purely opinion. I joined the church as an active and learning Christian, questioning and learning all along the way. There is no reason I should not have joined as a catechist once I became involved in the RCIA team. Though I may be an exception to the rule, this article again blanketed me out of participation. If you see a program that is floundering in your church, join it, and change it, don't call for its death. - Thomas Sanjurjo Tue, 20 Sep 2011 09:21:02 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/rcia-dismay.html#comment-8192 Couldn't agree more. I'm not blaming RCIA completely (my own pride and obstinacy had a lot to do with it)...but I went through 4 RCIA programs before finally entering the Church. I desperately wanted to have questions answered and issues resolved but it seemed the parish priests were all too busy and the RCIA program was little help. Although all the programs had many well-intentioned people, most of the programs I attended were more concerned about facilitating small group discussion and organizing pizza parties. On the fourth time around, I was blessed to be a part of a RCIA program led by a Dominican priest. - Berta Tue, 20 Sep 2011 08:59:30 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/rcia-dismay.html#comment-8191 I became an RCIA catechist 2 years after entering the Church in 2002. It is my great joy to pass on the faith that I now love, using the Catechism, Creeds and Scripture. All the RCIA "material" available is just incredibly bad, and I don't use it. It is a major challenge to tailor the level of teaching to the variety of catechumens and candidates that make up each group - we often have a wide range of educational background, intellectual capacity and basic information. Further, it is not unusual to have a Baptist who has memorized huge amounts of Scripture sitting beside someone who really didn't know that the Bible had an Old and New Testament. Add the marital and moral problems among them and one can imagine the difficulties. But, we teach the truth as the Church teaches. We do not hedge, or water it down. We allow for "sharing," but we never focus on the emotional aspect of learning and living our faith. - Barbara R Tue, 20 Sep 2011 08:53:27 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/rcia-dismay.html#comment-8190 Randall, your article reminded me of a refrain from a Clancy Brothers song..."all God's creatures have a place in the choir...some sing low, some sing higher...some just clap their hands or paws/pause"...Phil D. (above) has it right...Catholics take different routes and methods of transport on their voyage to Catholicism (even vain thinkers)...RCIA is just but one route (hopefully Magisterium driven and delievered by inspired volunteer lay catechists)...may God's blessings be reflected in catechists' teaching and personal lives/views...importantly too, may catechists be encouraged and supported by the Church Faithful. - Seanachie Tue, 20 Sep 2011 08:31:04 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/rcia-dismay.html#comment-8188 Thank you for this article. This is a very real problem. It is even worse than having teachers without any knowledge of the faith, who are not living the faith. In some Dioceses, no one may participate in the catechetical teaching without undergoing a training that is sure to destroy or at least damage the faith, a training that is an indoctrination in the very heresies that are rampant in the US today. I worked in a parish office for a few years and received in my email notices of the various 'credit courses" that were offered. Prior to my resignation, I sat in on a course which was to prepare catechists to teach about prayer. The instructor was an 8th grade teacher at the same school attached to this parish. All of the other attendees were already catholic school teachers/and catechists. Not one person complained at the several blatant attacks on the Holy Father, and the Holy Trinity. It was recommended, for example, that prayer to God as mother was an acceptible option... and no one said anything.... Perhaps, given the acceptance of homeschooling, there might be a variable form of catechisis for those coming into the church in whatever diocese/parish whereby their completion of the course has to be accepted in place of the heretical format imposed on anyone who desires the sacraments. I came into the church in 1988, right before the whole RCIA thing really took hold. I have thanked God many times. - Immaculatae Tue, 20 Sep 2011 07:50:23 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/rcia-dismay.html#comment-8187 I converted to Catholicism at age 60. My reading and study had already been extensive prior to RCIA. Our Parish Priest was very involved with our class and we all benefitted from this. There were some very unknowledgeable lay persons involved that did at times detract from the classes. My overall thought about RCIA however is that there needs to be more structure and rigor. - Don Tue, 20 Sep 2011 07:36:21 +0100