Comments for Prufrock, Peccology, Pessimism, and Paul at http://www.thecatholicthing.org , comment 1 to 13 out of 13 comments http://www.thecatholicthing.org Wed, 22 May 2013 19:21:15 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/prufrock-peccology-pessimism-and-paul.html#comment-8454 Yes. Choosing your own beliefs is evil. Letting other people choose what you choose as your beliefs, which happens a lot nowadays, is just pathetic. The goal of Christians must be to live holy lives after Jesus who is the Way, the Truth and the Life. This involves a positive process of disentangling ourselves from the traps of sin. Its positive rather than negative because avoiding sin which is poison to us is necessary to live or 'move towards' living the holy life. When avoiding sin becomes more negative, like a taboo, it is nothing more than a social convention. Since our social conventions in America have become completely disassociated from enduring Christian doctrine (in other words, they are empty forms) people, as you've noted, will check the 'moral' box for the stuff they do, they'd like to do or that their friends do. Its sad to see so many Catholics who should know better trapped in this way of thinking. - Ben Horvath Tue, 11 Oct 2011 10:13:53 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/prufrock-peccology-pessimism-and-paul.html#comment-8452 Ben, I think you've expressed yourself well, and it got me thinking . . . I'm usually not given to such pronouncements, but I suspect the situation we're describing here is pretty much as Lewis explained it via Screwtape. Whatever Catholics (and other people of faith) may once have known about religious doctrine, demons never cease whispering in our ears: Don't worry about that, you're free to choose your own set of beliefs. God made us in His image, right? It's the oldest sin of all — a lie as fresh as the day the Serpent first whispered it . . . - Brad Miner Tue, 11 Oct 2011 08:36:08 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/prufrock-peccology-pessimism-and-paul.html#comment-8451 Brad - as hard as it is to believe its likely that the people you know, despite the no doubt many credentials and accomplishments they have, are more completely ignorant of the basics of 'their faith' then a medieval peasant. Obviously this is despite having the ability to read, inexpensive books and stuff easily written down in the Catechism and elsewhere. By ignorant I mean they could not assent to any part of the creed (pick one) based on knowledge gained from study and prayer - real 'Catholic, day one' stuff. While many baby boomers received catachesis as children, a lack of follow up over the years has dulled this for most, or at least they have not grown in the faith. Younger people have not received any catachesis - trust me on this one. Take some crayons and draw a rainbow - that's the depth of knowledge and sophistication in the faith that we are talking about. Older and younger people have both been cafateriarized by the 'Spirit of Vatican II' worshippers who seem to have so many jobs within the church (not just priests). The important thing is not that people recite the right lines, it is that they know what they believe and accept or reject it. People can not have faith in someone or the One without knowing in whom they have put their faith. I wish I could express myself better but here is the point in relation to your column: people will only live the moral life if they know Jesus, love Him and desire to follow Him on His road to the cross. Not knowing Christ will lead you on the road to the buffet table. - Ben Horvath Tue, 11 Oct 2011 07:58:56 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/prufrock-peccology-pessimism-and-paul.html#comment-8440 I'm struck, when I read the medieval devotional literature -- like The Cloud of Unknowing, with its wonderful and humane prayer, "Sin! Sin! Sin! Help, help, help!" -- that the medievals were a lot more realistic about man's nature than we are, and that they held to a far higher standard of goodness than we do. Those things go together. If we lose the sense of sin, we lose also the sense of human excellence. - Tony Esolen Mon, 10 Oct 2011 12:55:45 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/prufrock-peccology-pessimism-and-paul.html#comment-8439 Andrew: I thought about it (and even mentioned it in the proposal), but there were just too many familiar words and phrases (peccadillo, peccata mundi, etc.) not to stick with peccology. -B - Brad Miner Mon, 10 Oct 2011 12:52:40 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/prufrock-peccology-pessimism-and-paul.html#comment-8438 I suppose, for the purist, you could talk about harmatology instead of peccology. - Andrew Mon, 10 Oct 2011 12:44:54 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/prufrock-peccology-pessimism-and-paul.html#comment-8435 Therein may lay the rub - St. Paul was so rarely to be found at cocktail parties... Excellent article! Mirrors much of my own sentiment and sorrow. I'll only add that my train of thought tends to arrive at a prayer for my ever deeper conversion - such that my life might be an ever more effective witness to faith, hope and charity. I continue to be, as you have put it, "struggling to conform my life to the teachings of the Church." Thank you Mr. Miner. - Denverite Mon, 10 Oct 2011 10:32:25 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/prufrock-peccology-pessimism-and-paul.html#comment-8434 I studied Eliot's poem last year in an English literature class. Thank you for somehow managing incorporating it into this article. In the poem, Prufrock seems unable to act or say or do anything whenever he's in the presence of his beloved. I guess in a similar way Catholics sometimes feel hesitant to call a spade a spade and to admonish someone who's blatantly committing a sin (even if admonishing and counseling someone not to sin is considered a spiritual work of mercy, if Catholics these days know what those are !!haha) Let the reform of the reform continue... - Michael Mon, 10 Oct 2011 10:06:44 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/prufrock-peccology-pessimism-and-paul.html#comment-8433 "Am I to be St. Paul at the next cocktail party?" Brad, of course you are. You know as well as I do that your knowledge, your faith, and your life are not your own... - Eddie Mon, 10 Oct 2011 09:23:43 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/prufrock-peccology-pessimism-and-paul.html#comment-8432 Brad: Thanks for writing that. I knew on some level that I wasn't the only one in that boat, but it's reassuring to have someone else actually stand up and say it out loud. "If I believed what I say would matter . . ." - Jim Deken Mon, 10 Oct 2011 06:29:33 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/prufrock-peccology-pessimism-and-paul.html#comment-8431 The psychiatrist, Karl Menninger, in "Whatever Became of Sin?" traces the lack of consciousness of sin in recent generations to the change of attitude toward masturbation, which used to be considered a sin, but is now widely considered "normal." - Howard Kainz Mon, 10 Oct 2011 05:56:07 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/prufrock-peccology-pessimism-and-paul.html#comment-8430 Brad: Thank you for a very interesting piece. Your references to writers and figures from literature to make your points always pique my interest. For some time, both in TCT and in the Church, there has existed this dialogue on the dichotomy between the traditional v. the modern Church. Your piece today and Howard's The Spirit of Vatican II both give specific examples where the two religions(?)differ. Both sources of teaching cannot be true. - Manfred Mon, 10 Oct 2011 04:33:34 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/prufrock-peccology-pessimism-and-paul.html#comment-8429 After telling relatives at a family get-together that our son, recently graduated from college, was in the midst of attending several weddings of his college friends, the general reaction ranged from surprise to disdain that people so young were getting married. It didn't occur to my relatives that these young people were Catholics who actually were choosing to express their love for each other according to Catholic morality. And these relatives go to Mass every Sunday! Notwithstanding the pontificates of John Paul II and Benedict XVI, the cafeteria remains open. - Martinkus Mon, 10 Oct 2011 01:23:33 +0100