Comments for A Long View of Vatican II at http://www.thecatholicthing.org , comment 1 to 38 out of 20 comments http://www.thecatholicthing.org Tue, 21 May 2013 18:15:16 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/a-long-view-of-vatican-ii.html#comment-8510 "Perhaps religious practice was "more pervasive and 'normal'" but that doesn't mean the situation was anywhere near a healthy one. Things had to have been pretty bad already before the Council for things to have gone the way they did afterward. When the kettle whistles, the water didn't get hot instantly -- it's been brewing a long time already." Hi Trish, I'm not sure if your post above was meant for me or Manfred since I directly took on you assertion that things must have been pretty bad before the Council for things to have gone South so quickly after it. Frankly, I would say that the reason Mass attendance didn't plummet even further than it did was precisely because many pre-Vatican II Catholics were taught what Mass is and its importance and hence stuck through what could only have been volcanic changes for them. I still believe my analogy of a new coach coming in and changing everything around is apropos. As Catholics we learn and experience our Faith primarily through the liturgy and the accompanying devotions along with art and architecture. If that is drastically messed with and Church practice starts going South the lesson learned should be the importance of not drastically altering Catholics' primary experience of their Faith which is actually an embodiment of that Faith. - Brennan Thu, 13 Oct 2011 20:21:37 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/a-long-view-of-vatican-ii.html#comment-8508 Hi Patrick, First off, my defense of the liturgy is primarily of the prayers and rubrics of the Gregorian rite, regardless of the language. Hence I would take the Gregorian rite in the vernacular over the Novus Ordo in Latin any day of the week. Regardless of that, Latin is still the operative language of the Church and was hardly abolished in Sacrosanctum Concilium (although there were huge loopholes as Christopher Ferrara has pointed out) and thus is hardly "nostalgia". It is still the only worldwide ecclesiastical and liturgical language we have which helps provide a visible unity and bond with others of very different backgrounds. Pope John XXIII's Veterum Sapientia is a good take on this. I would hope and pray that the Gregorian rite would foster distinctive beauty in art and architecture as it has done throughout its history. It does not obliterate cultures but allows them to reach their pinnacle. Thus Spanish sacred art and architecture is not the same as the German or French and thank God for that. I would want the same distinctive flourishing for Eastern Catholics as well. And this is a far cry from the bland sameness and desacralization which has seemed to accompany the Novus Ordo and tends to obliterate distinctions between cultures rather than fostering them. - Brennan Thu, 13 Oct 2011 20:11:55 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/a-long-view-of-vatican-ii.html#comment-8505 I am afraid I have to side with those who stated the complete lack of reality in this article. God can of course make good come from anything trough the Holy Spirit. But lets us reflect on the warning before Vat. II by Pope St Pius X. After all he was the one who issued MotoPropio the Document with the old oath Sacrorum Antistum against progressive modernism and secularism in the letter Pascendi dominici gregis. An dhas anyone here who thinks that Vat II was the great council actually studied the discussions that went on between the liberals and the hard core conservatives? You might find some startling surprises as to who came out a winner on that back and forth with Pope Paul VI. Dose anyone here happen to know the names of the six protestant ministers that were invited to help write the Conciliar Documents? And who rescinded the promise that all religious had to make against secularism and modernism which Pope St Pius X called a heresy in 1907? I`ll help you with that one. Pope Paul VI. Pax - Tom T Thu, 13 Oct 2011 16:00:56 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/a-long-view-of-vatican-ii.html#comment-8504 @Manfred: I think we're on the same page as regards that photo-op with the Pope. But 20 years ago, how many of us were aware of how different Islam is from other "world religions" like Hinduism and Buddhism? I still chalk it up to ignorance. And as far "no salvation outside the Church," I don't know how old you are, but I can still recall the trouble Fr. Leonard Feeney got into for taking that saying literally during the 40s and 50s. One of the main "fruits" of the Council were the movements towards ecumenism, and this resulted in some extremes. But, as I mention in my October 9 column here, "The Spirit of Vatican II," JPII became identified with the "reform of the reform." Two major JPII contributions included the call to the "New Evangelization" and the Catechism of the Catholic Church during the 80s, which so irritated some liberals. - Howard Kainz Thu, 13 Oct 2011 15:34:52 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/a-long-view-of-vatican-ii.html#comment-8500 @Howard. Let me lock on to the central point which is missing in our conversation: after the Council the Church dropped the study of apologetics as this taught that Catholicism was the One, True Faith. ALL others,including Judaism since the death of Christ, were false! Why was this subject dropped? Because it interfered with the New Order which had little to nothing to do with Faith, but had everything to do with WORLD PEACE. Therefore no lines would be drawn in the sand. Everyone would be together on this side of the "line". The operative word would be DIALOGUE even if it resulted in achieving NOTHING. As long as we were talking there would be no more hostility or wars. These European bishops had seen WW I, WW II, Naziism, Communism, gulags, the Holocaust, concentration camps. All these things could never happen again. That is the whole point of the SSPX's argument. Whatever occurred/is occurring has nothing to do with two thousand years of Catholicism. Call it something else. That is why a pope kissed the Koran-anything for peace! - Manfred Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:52:34 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/a-long-view-of-vatican-ii.html#comment-8499 Trish: When you have a moment, you might want to read PASCENDI and LAMENTABILI which were written in 1907 by SAINT Pope Pius X on the errors of the Modernists. He suppressed them with the Oath against Modernism which every bishop and priest had to renew every year until 1965 when the fey Paul VI declared it was no longer necessary. The same ideas the Modernists put forward earlier were introduced at Vatican II by the neo-Modernists, Progressives such as the idea that the Church was a democracy (the people of God, the priesthood of the laity), that the Pope was one bishop equal in authority to all the others,(collegiality), that Luther was correct that there was no evidence from Scripture for a sacerdotal priesthood and therefore the laity could serve as priests, that the Eucharist was a "Community Meal" presided over by a Presider and not a priest who possessed the charism to confect the Eucharist (Transubstatiation). Recall this fact: no layperson ever asked for this Council. It was hijacked by the same sort of misfit and malcontent priest/bishop who has plagued the Church for centuries. It directly opposed the teachings (Dogmatic!!!) of the Council of Trent. See the TCT article for Oct. 13th on the Austrian Priest Initiative. - Manfred Thu, 13 Oct 2011 10:33:12 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/a-long-view-of-vatican-ii.html#comment-8498 Mydogoreo, most university graduates are illiterate for all intents and purposes of true grammar. On top of that you would want them to read Fides et Ratio? And understand it? To hope for such a thing is irrational. Our problems with literacy are moral and we keep throwing technology and techniques at them. - Achilles Thu, 13 Oct 2011 08:36:50 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/a-long-view-of-vatican-ii.html#comment-8495 Thank you, Titus! That Vatican II was "too sure of man's abilities" is obviously true. After two devastating world wars and the greatest loss of vocations (after WWI, actually, not after Vatican II), it became clear that the clerics were not handling their flock too well. But they put the ball in the court of an unprepared laity by urging more lay involvement. While that laity was better educated than at any point in history, it had learned a superficial faith, a piety without substance. Getting to the substance of the faith, learning to read encyclicals is not easy. It requires an openness, an acknowledgement of vulnerability, humility. It means asking the Holy Spirit for help. For all the bachelor, masters, and doctorate degrees out there, can they not read "Fides et Ratio"? - is it easier to build up our often very complex careers than it is to find out what the Church teaches? What excuse do we have? - mydogoreo Thu, 13 Oct 2011 07:30:58 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/a-long-view-of-vatican-ii.html#comment-8492 @Manfred: Well, let me make some distinctions: I suspect Pope JPII was familiar with all the things you mentioned. But I doubt whether he knew that the Islamic holy books -- the Koran and the Hadith -- actually recommended doing many evil and barbarous acts. There have been a lot of evil Christians, but they were not fulfilling mandates given in the New Testament. - Howard Kainz Thu, 13 Oct 2011 06:21:07 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/a-long-view-of-vatican-ii.html#comment-8491 Manfred: Perhaps religious practice was "more pervasive and 'normal'" but that doesn't mean the situation was anywhere near a healthy one. Things had to have been pretty bad already before the Council for things to have gone the way they did afterward. When the kettle whistles, the water didn't get hot instantly -- it's been brewing a long time already. Perhaps I misspoke, and I guess you haven't said that things were hunky dory, but it's definitely the impression that comes across from the vast majority of your comments here on TCT. It would appear that you think that everything was just perfect, and then BOOM, there comes Vatican II to mess it all up. - Trish Thu, 13 Oct 2011 04:25:45 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/a-long-view-of-vatican-ii.html#comment-8490 I hope you're willing to defend "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" (though not in the Feeneyite sense) since it's still the teaching of the Church - see the Catechism 846-48. - Sam Schmitt Thu, 13 Oct 2011 03:42:31 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/a-long-view-of-vatican-ii.html#comment-8487 very good and informative - sebastian zacharia Wed, 12 Oct 2011 23:35:26 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/a-long-view-of-vatican-ii.html#comment-8485 Brennan, it is not beauty and reverence that I consider nostalgic, but first and foremost the Latin language, and then, representational artwork in the Western mode (particularly such executed using white models), Gothic and Classical (i.e. Greek revival) architecture, and Gregorian chant. However aesthetically pleasing they may be to Western Europeans, these are NOT essential items for the Church. I ask you sincerely to consider the position of newly converted and devout Catholics in Eastern Asia. None of them have ever known the Latin Mass or the Latin language. At the same time they are hardly uncivilized. In fact, you will find their societies to be much more stable and free of crime than in the West. What possible purpose do you think it would serve to deprive the Asian churches of Mass in their native languages, and replace it with a dead language from a dead continent? Some abstract idea of aesthetics? A devotion to historicism? Jesus did not speak Latin; the Bible was not written in Latin. I think some of you underestimate the extent to which European chauvinism and "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus" pervaded the Church before Vatican II. Are you really willing today to defend a special status for Latin, and to defend "Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus?" Are you really? - Patrick Wed, 12 Oct 2011 19:16:24 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/a-long-view-of-vatican-ii.html#comment-8484 @Howard: You are "convinced that Pope JPII simply had no familiarity with the Koran;.."??? It is called syncretism, the idea that one religion can assist in salvation as well as another. Pope JPII's pontificate was riddled with it as Assisi I and Assisi II clearly demonstrate. Cdl Ratzinger refused to attend Assisi I because it was clearly syncretic. Do you really believe that JPII had never been exposed to Islam and its "bible", that he had never studied the Crusades, that he had never heard of the janissaries who were Christians who had been captured, made to convert to Islam and then trained to fight for the Muslims? You do know that many of the "Turks" who were killed at Lepanto were, in fact, these janissaries fighting for the Sultan's fleet against the Catholic fleet, don't you? H. Belloc wrote of Mohammedanism as a heresy 80 years ago. Granted that Pope JPII was Polish but he could have sought out Cdl. Ratzinger who proved himself an expert on the subject at Regensberg(sp?). - Manfred Wed, 12 Oct 2011 18:24:43 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/a-long-view-of-vatican-ii.html#comment-8483 Brennon, thanks for the clarification, I too would reccomend Von Hildebrand. - Achilles Wed, 12 Oct 2011 18:18:48 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/a-long-view-of-vatican-ii.html#comment-8482 Chris in Maryland, thank you for excellent words about our Holy Father who in good faith serves Our Lord and Mother Church. Christ himself asks us to “judge rightly” not on appearances. John 7:24. I, like you, love our Tradition, the Deposit of Faith, and all that entails. The liberalism that has infiltrated Mother Church has been foretold by more than just Pope Leo XIII. Many good Catholics have road mapped the anatomy of the confusion that besets so many of us. I am most concerned for our traditionalists brothers who have many things right, but seem to suffer from a reductionism characteristic of our age. Attributing all our problems, including the liturgical holocaust, to the Vatican II council is like blaming the whole “gay marriage” fiasco on the Obama administration. I always appreciate your comments and I especially admire the even comments you made here today! Pax Christi tecum, Achilles - Achilles Wed, 12 Oct 2011 18:15:42 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/a-long-view-of-vatican-ii.html#comment-8481 "To Brennan and Manfred: "If things were as hunky-dory perfect in the Church before Vatican II as you say they were, then why on earth did things go so haywire after the Council? Think about that for a moment. If everything was well, then whence came all the agendae and crazy experimentation? The mere existence of so many people willing to throw out the baby with the bathwater suggests that there were problems well before the Council. Had everything truly been fine prior to the Council, then I suspect things would have gone very differently afterward." Hi Trish, First, I do not maintain that everything was "hunky-dory perfect" in the Church before Vatican II. The Church was filled with sinners then just as it is now, which is one reason why beauty and reverence or so essential to the Church's life in any age (and are not mere "nostalgia" as another poster put it.) I liken the collapse to having a basketball coach with a championship winning team. A new coach comes in to head the same exact players and considers all the layup drills, the line running, passing drills, etc. to be "old fashioned" and out of step with the way modern kids want to play basketball. So he scraps all the drills and practice. Would it be any wonder if this same team went on to have a dismal season and many quit altogether because they no longer took it seriously? - Brennan Wed, 12 Oct 2011 17:09:35 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/a-long-view-of-vatican-ii.html#comment-8480 "P.S. Brennon, either Dr. White is out of touch and the council was damaging, or you and Manfred are out of touch with reality. You two seem to fancy yourselves more Catholic than the Good Popes. Bailing out water? wisdom and humility? No one can fault your self esteem, but this is a value of the world and the world is a liar." Achilles, no, I'm not more Catholic than the Pope. I think our present and past two Popes have had to rule during the worst crisis in the history of the Church. The Council led to damage, regardless of its lofty intentions. And thanks for letting me clarify, I consider recognizing the crisis we have been going through and the part Vatican II has played merely stating the obvious, hence no self-esteem uptick is involved. For a much better assessment than I provide I would recommend reading someone such as Dietrich von Hildebrand. - Brennan Wed, 12 Oct 2011 17:02:57 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/a-long-view-of-vatican-ii.html#comment-8479 @Manfred: I am convinced that Pope JPII simply had no familiarity with the Koran; if he knew what the Medinan parts of the Koran had to say about Christians and Jews, he would never have made that gesture. But after 9/11 there was a strong incentive for many of us to investigate what is going on in that strange religion. - Howard Kainz Wed, 12 Oct 2011 16:55:48 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/a-long-view-of-vatican-ii.html#comment-8478 Chris in Maryland: You and I are more in accord than you might think. Yes, it was the priest/peritus Fr. Ratzinger in his black suit and tie at the Council who became the Prefect for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Cdl Ratzinger in 1979 at the request of JP II, and served in that office until 2005 when he was elected pope. From 1979 until 2005 he was made aware of all the ills and excesses in the Church. He did give me a birthday present on 9/5/2000 entitled Dominus Jesus, but this was immediately pushed in the cupboard, to be released again in his pontificate. He knows full well the enormous task he faces to back the "train" over fifty years of track. I would ask all TCT readers to pray for him each day. We must. - Manfred Wed, 12 Oct 2011 15:27:43 +0100