Comments for Immigrants, Legal and Illegal at http://www.thecatholicthing.org , comment 1 to 13 out of 13 comments http://www.thecatholicthing.org Wed, 22 May 2013 19:30:45 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/immigrants-legal-and-illegal.html#comment-8893 Very solid and practical suggestion from Susan: shut down large parts of the welfare state. Has the USCCB ever heard the mystery word SUBSIDIARITY ? Is individual charity really encouraged by increasing government-imposed taxes to, inter alia, support welfare programs ? - Charles Molineaux Thu, 17 Nov 2011 06:24:19 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/immigrants-legal-and-illegal.html#comment-8890 This is an excellent exposition of the problem illegal immigration poses to our society - the problem of the breaking of the rule of law. Now to solve it, perhaps in exchange for "regularizing" the illegals (to take place before we do so), we can shut down large parts of the welfare state that is attracting so many to break laws to get into the country. This would have positive benefits elsewhere in our society as well. The Church itself could help in this "de-welfarization" by taking up her proper role in providing charity herself rather than advocating the forcing of citizens to pay taxes to the government to dispense welfare goodies. USCCB role in advocating Obamacare (with a few pretentious caveats about abortion) is a case in point. Now because of Obamacare we've got Catholic hospitals closing and adoption agencies shut down. When will USCCB get "the message"? - Susan Wed, 16 Nov 2011 10:00:20 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/immigrants-legal-and-illegal.html#comment-8871 Dr. Royal - you mentioned two particular words that resonated with me: responsibility and contempt. Responsibility - the US Government has a responsibility towards its poor citizens to protect their livelihoods and their persons. In allowing unlimited immigration from Mexico (and also other places), the government is failing to protect the jobs unskilled Americans might do by allowing employers to hire foreigners who will work for less (and will admittedly do a better job in many cases than the least skilled natives). In addition, many of the children of immigrants from Spanish speaking countries will be treated preferably by our institutions (needless to say the white poor will be the ones who will be discriminated against). Illegal immigration also offends against persons in the following ways: - many of the children of illegal immigrants assimilate to underclass gang member values rather than middle class American values - Mexico at least provides a safe location for its citizens who commit crimes in the US, including murder - Illegal immigrant migration can change the demographics of communities and encourage native born Americans to leave because of the attendant problems. Please notice that all of the drawbacks of Illegal immigration I've mentioned are burdens almost exclusively born by poor Americans. In contrast higher income middle class people and wealthy people benefit in some ways - inexpensive servants and other workers for example. So, the poor are bearing the burden of high levels of immigration, which brings me to the next word: Contempt - The attitude that pro-immigration groups take toward anyone who questions unlimited immigration mirrors the general contempt towards the poor, particularly poor whites, that is demonstrated by the elites in our society. They are stereotyped as unthinking bigots, which means in modern thinking that they are beings without moral worth. Our Bishops should understand that loving our neighbor sometimes actually means loving our actual neighbor and not just migrants or exiles who are the recipients of trendy concern because politicians want another ethnic voting block. They are right to insist upon the humanity and moral worth of immigrants including illegal immigrants. They are wrong to insist that the government abdicate its responsibility to poor citizens and continue policies that hurt them. - Ben Horvath Mon, 14 Nov 2011 16:46:18 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/immigrants-legal-and-illegal.html#comment-8870 @Patrick. It is not hard to imagine a Catholic prelate advocating the breaking laws, since that is exactly what Abp Gomez's immediate predecesor, Cardinal Mahoney did? Before I tiry to make several serious points, please indulge me as I point out that those who crossed the frozen Bearing Straits could not have been the first Native Americans; only their offspring could be called that. I can't help myself. Now, as to the assertion that social vision of the Church is "not a captive of a political party..." I think that the humbers show that not only the laity but more prominently the clergy bleieve that the Abortion Party represents the true goals of Christianity. After all, the most virulently, pro-abortion, pro-homosexual behavior, pro-socialist, and anti-CAtholic amdinistration was elelcted with significant suport from Catholics. There is another aspect of the way that many Catholics view the immigration issue, namely that the underlying assumption of the expression "undocumented alien" is that our laws are not valid because as a non-socialist country our government is not valid. We are in big trouble. - Thomas C. coleman, Jr. Mon, 14 Nov 2011 13:44:21 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/immigrants-legal-and-illegal.html#comment-8869 The real issue isn't the illegal immigrants. The real issue is the importation and exploitation of cheap labor by companies seeking to reduce wages for jobs they can't outsource to Asia, often skirting employment laws (hazardous work conditions, paying below minimum wage, threatening workers with deportation, etc.)in doing so. Punish companies that exploit labor and the demand for illegal immigrant labor will wither. - Joseph Mon, 14 Nov 2011 12:59:56 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/immigrants-legal-and-illegal.html#comment-8868 Raymundo y Ana, Are you two serious? Mexico has failed its people for countless generations. Unfortunately, liberation theology is damaging its single greatest source of renewal, The Roman Catholic Church. Ana, escuchas a ti misma, you say "Mexico is not an almost failed state." and in the next breath claim there are "reasons that in most cases oblige many to immigrate up north." So in your fantasy of a not failed state, it is so good that many don't even have the free will to opt against breaking US national law? I don't think you can have it both ways chica. Y Raymundo, no se lo que puedo decir a ti. Multiculturalism blinds us. It is a false pride. - Achilles Mon, 14 Nov 2011 10:44:49 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/immigrants-legal-and-illegal.html#comment-8867 I agree with part of the arguments written by the author, but the point the made me pretty angry was the afirmation that Mexico is "an almost failed state". Has the author been in México? Here are interesting data about México's growth: we have a higher rate of literacy than Brasil (92.9% over 90% of Brasil), and many others. I can't deny that there is a big problem with the drug cartels, that buy most of their guns in the USA, and sell most of their "product" in the USA (the biggest market). It looks like the author only knows México, from the media. - Raymundo Martínez Mon, 14 Nov 2011 07:44:21 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/immigrants-legal-and-illegal.html#comment-8865 I think there is broad-based agreement that our borders need to be secured. But "the devil is in the details." How do you secure the borders? The wall? Massive increases in border surveillance? Implementation of federal laws against the hiring of illegals? We're talking about an immensely long border, and immense motivations for crossing it. - Howard Kainz Mon, 14 Nov 2011 05:37:50 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/immigrants-legal-and-illegal.html#comment-8862 In the same way that the best doctor is one who treats the illness itself and not merely the symptoms, it would seem to me that if we were really wise as a nation, it would be better if we were to put some sort of pressure on countries like Mexico to clean up their act so that their citizens can have a good life in their own homeland and won't feel the need to emigrate from their home in the first place. Sure, they may see benefits in coming illegally to the U.S., but would it not be better if people could be happy and safe in their own home? And if these failing countries never feel any pressure, the rate of emigration is never going to decrease, because the illness would still be raging. Dealing with the problem of illegal immigration after the illegals are already here is only treating the symptoms. It's not just that American citizens who abide by the laws and pay their taxes should have to have our laws violated and to take on all the issues that come with illegal immigrants, all because our government won't stand up for the country. And then, if illegal immigrants disregard the basic law of citizenship, then does this not suggest that there's not going to be much concern for other laws once they're here? Anyway, I'm not sure what form pressure against these countries might take, but I'm sure there are enough brains out there that could figure something out. But, I have to add that it does nothing for the argument when so many people -- I see this all the time in my generation (I'm a Generation X-er) and the one behind me -- have total disregard for many laws, like music copyright laws, traffic laws, etc. It's hard to convince people who are for totally opening the borderes to illegals that we're concerned about the law when so many folks don't care much for a lot of the laws out there. - Trish Mon, 14 Nov 2011 04:07:24 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/immigrants-legal-and-illegal.html#comment-8861 I agree with most of what you say about this issue, but on what grounds do you say that Mexico is an "almost failed" State? On the superficial media that you get about that country in the United States? Have you been to Mexico and understood the reasons that in most cases oblige many to immigrate up north? - Ana Mon, 14 Nov 2011 04:03:44 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/immigrants-legal-and-illegal.html#comment-8860 We seem to be living in the age of a la carte morality. This extends beyond "cafeteria Catholics" to secular society. Many seem to believe that a personal desire or grievance is superior to law. This is in line with the extreme individualism that (as noted last week) leads inevitably to statism. Laws are social. Desires and grievances are personal. A self-centered and self-referenced morality is opposed to social intercourse and love of neighbor. It breaks down rather than builds up societal bonds and creates suspicion, anger and the potential for violence. Laws are not laws that are capriciously applied, or worse, manipulated for political purposes. The system of politically driven rewards to favored “clients” and punishments for those who fail to play along is the essence of political corruption. The secular government seeks to regulate the citizens in ever increasing detail while failing to provide basic security, a stable (and sustainable) monetary environment and the impartial application of law. The lady with the sword and scales was blindfolded for a reason. Lately she’s been cheating. - Other Joe Mon, 14 Nov 2011 03:43:40 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/immigrants-legal-and-illegal.html#comment-8859 Despite the unnecessary rudeness of the previous remark, let me clarify so that we do not get involved in a fruitless distraction. I deliberately chose to offer only my own position here. It's not my business to characterize or speak for anyone else. The bishops have made numerous public statements that are easy to find. And have detailed plans for better focusing and communicating their own message, which ncludes engaging people they don't usually hear from. - Robert Royal Mon, 14 Nov 2011 02:42:14 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/immigrants-legal-and-illegal.html#comment-8858 I mostly agree with the points made, but it would have been interesting to hear a bit more from the bishops' side about what the "immigration message" is. It sounds like the author either didn't attend the luncheon or wasn't paying attention, or did no one actually say anything there? It seems to me unlikely that any Catholic bishops have actually advocated breaking the immigration laws. Who is being quoted in the jaywalking statement? Support for the rule of law is certainly welcome, but not, I don't think, particularly controversial. It would be nice to have got a better sense of what the opposing argument actually is, since I don't think many people seriously consider illegal immigration to be quite comparable to jaywalking, although I could be wrong. - Patrick Sun, 13 Nov 2011 20:56:25 +0100