Comments for The Protestantization of the Church at http://www.thecatholicthing.org , comment 1 to 40 out of 20 comments http://www.thecatholicthing.org Tue, 21 May 2013 17:47:26 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-protestantization-of-the-church.html#comment-15294 About Holy Days of Obligation. I have to agree with the Cath from Georgia. I am from Georgia and I will agree with him, that out of a parish of about 800 folks, maybe 20 or so, if that attend the minor holy days. We attend Mass in Winder, Georgia. I think personally, the church makes too big of a deal about whether their flocks attend holy days. I did when I went to Catholic grade school back in the day, but must admit, the last one I attended as an adult, was All Saints, the day after Halloween. - Meri Lee Testa Thu, 10 Jan 2013 15:10:19 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-protestantization-of-the-church.html#comment-10143 Interesting article, I have to agree with Rob here, and thank you for that statement (Rob). It actually makes me happy to see a revival of faith in younger Catholics today, who do not make the Vatican their saviour, but who make Christ the first in their hearts. The Church for them is secondary to that love for Christ. When Christ becomes first in our hearts, we do not do acts of charity out of obligation, but out of love. And if that is the case, then yes there is a stronger bond between Protestants and Catholics. Christ did not come to establish disunity, but to create a bond of unity in all those who love and submit to Him. I do not think there will ever be a reconciliation between the Protestants and Catholics, but I do believe there will be a day when Christ ushers in all those who know Him, all those who serve Him, and those who have toiled to produce fruits in His name. That is the day when all of God's people will worship His name alone. I myself am a Protestant, but that is second to who I truly am- Christian. On Sundays, we often recite this statement in our church I believe in the holy catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body and life everlasting. I may disagree with Catholic doctrine, but when it comes to Christ as my saviour, then yes I agree with you. And by doing so I participate in the communion of the saints. - Jordan Tue, 28 Feb 2012 07:12:11 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-protestantization-of-the-church.html#comment-9179 I take great offense in the author’s use of Protestantism of the Catholic Church, as implying that the Catholic Church has become colloquially "watered down" in its religious acumen. For the most part, Protestants in general have a more advid and ardent understanding of the bible in sharp contrast to Catholics in America. When you compare most Protestants to catholic parishioners, 9 out of 10 times the Protestant will be better versed in the bible than any Catholic I have met. Secondly, Catholics place too much religious ceremonial aspects to their religious life than the purity of what the bible teaches us. True Protestants, that is, truly spiritual ones, rely solely on the words and teachings of the bible and less if not any at all, the ritual aspects of church dogma. That is why there was a schism to begin with. I am not excoriating the Catholic Church but I would like to make some contrast in this forum as to the offense of Protestants. It is not nice, I will guess, when some of you Catholics will read what I am stating here, will be offended. Don’t throw stones or judge others. Isn’t that somewhere in the bible!!!! So let’s get our facts straight. Protestants are just as religious as Catholics. In reality, Protestants are more sagacious in God’s word. We read the bible in our church services except for a few of the traditional protestant churches. A lot of what is discussed here is no where to be found in God’s teaching. What are you guys so concerned with, with regards to how the Pope changes words to a reading or passage!!! The pope and the writers within the Catholic Church should just stick to the words taught in the bible as pure to it as it can be. And keep to the meaning of what God is saying through the good news. - Rob Newland Mon, 12 Dec 2011 09:46:47 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-protestantization-of-the-church.html#comment-9049 Given the deep sense of devotion and spiritualism I've seen at some evangelical services, I find it hard to believe that God would find these people or their style of worship offensive to Him. - fxkelli Wed, 30 Nov 2011 16:44:25 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-protestantization-of-the-church.html#comment-9044 At our parish in Oshkosh, Holy Day attendance is great. Also, as a MU alum, its great to see the Philosophy Dept still has profs like Dr. Kainz - faithful and wise! - Dylan Wed, 30 Nov 2011 06:09:42 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-protestantization-of-the-church.html#comment-8990 We are witnessing our Catholic Church plagued with Modernism within the heirarchy of our Church trickling down to the Faithful, the worst of all heresies. The Oath Against Modernism taken by every ordained priest pre Vatican II, was rescinded during the time of Vatican II. These times have been forewarned by reliable Popes; St Pius X and Leo XIII 100 years ago. Study their encyclicals. Attend the Trindentine Mass where you will find a deeper sense of the Sacred and a probable call back to Tradition. Is an apostasy occuring? If so, as a result the Conciliar Church will become irrelvant. The gates of hell will not prevail against the Catholic Church even if but 300 will be holding faithfully to the Sacred Traditions of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. - Albert P Wed, 23 Nov 2011 12:15:06 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-protestantization-of-the-church.html#comment-8979 I believe the question of Holy day obligations is just one example used here to demonstrate a problem with the leadership of the Church which you have effectively described isolated and pointed out correctly, and that is, the decentralization, if you will, of authority with regard to norms to be followed not only with regard to liturgy but even the celebration of the Sacrifice of the Mass, as seen and experienced by many in abuses in various locations not only in Canada but in the United States. It was stated by Cardinal Koch, the Vatican`s top ecumenist,that Pope Benedict XVI thinks the post-Vatican II liturgical changes have brought "many positive fruits" but also problems, including a focus on purely practical matters and a neglect of the paschal mystery in the Eucharistic celebration. One thing that might be important to point out here is, the fact that, in previous times duties and obligations were not so much in the interest and convenience of the Faithful, but were meant, never the less, to be observed. The reversal of the mindeset of the Faithful demanding what should be observed and not, is in my view a product of decentralization of authority prompted by modernistic secularization of society that is evident most everywhere paricularly in Austria, Australia, Great Britan and other places as well, which is one of the many reasons the Holy Father had to issue a letter (Universae Ecclesia) to support and clarify Summorum Pontificum, which I don`t believe he should have had to do. Part of the breakdown in this country, aside from the reasons I mentioned, is the mixed messages that seem to come from the USCCB again, the lack of uniformity of directives that leave many questions open and at the discretion of the local pastor. There are many examples I could demonstrate here to support my point but they are all part of the larger problem of which the Holy day of obligation celebration is just one an example of. Pax. - Tom T Tue, 22 Nov 2011 15:42:16 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-protestantization-of-the-church.html#comment-8976 It doesn't require "Protestantization" to drop the obligation of some Holy Days. The number of Holy Days of Obligation is a local matter under control of the bishop. Most (not all) of the Unites States observes six such days per year, which on the scale of things is on the rather aggressive side. In Canada and Australia, only two are observed. Are Canadian Catholics more Protestant than U.S. Catholics? It bothers me that the "universal" church has such random rules that vary by rite or location. Someone might well ask, "Why would I go to hell for behaving in Phoenix exactly the same way as a heaven-bound person from Winnipeg? The 49th parallel divides morality?" Also, just because there was a small gathering at St. Catherine's, that doesn't mean that those were the only people of 4,136 families from St. Sebastian's who wanted to observe the obligation. Some might have attended different Masses. That's not to say they all do; I recognized that even most of the regular Sunday attendees do not observe Holy Days. So why don't they? When the notion of a Holy Day originated, in countries with an established Church, a Holy Day was indeed a holiday. A day of rest: no work, no school. Attending Mass was accommodated, and expected by society. In our secular society, most people don't have the day off work or school, like they do on Sunday. I try to attend on Holy Days by manipulating my scheduling. But most churches around my area do not add extra Masses for the Holy Day, offering only the regular daily 8am or noon, which do not work for me. If they add a 4 or 5pm Mass, that's hardly any better. It becomes an almost frantic online treasure hunt to find a local church with a Mass when I can attend. That's not to say that people shouldn't put in the effort. But regardless of the activity, from attending Mass to attending school, from shopping to volunteering, from playing to working, the more difficult a task is to accomplish, the fewer people will (or can) do it. In a nutshell, it was just plain easier in the past to attend Mass on a Holy Day. - Alan Tue, 22 Nov 2011 08:27:38 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-protestantization-of-the-church.html#comment-8975 Thank you Professor Kainz for pointing this out. It needs to be said. We were warned of all this. St. Pius X in his encyclical Pascendi Domeninci Gregis defined progressivism as modernism and called it heresy. He devised an oath that priests and religious were required to take and it is my understanding that the oath was discontinued along with many other conservative practices by Pope Paul VI. As one commentator pointed out, he did invite six prostentant ministers to help with the new Mass. Much of the Post Conciliar Documents were ambiguous and open for, in my view, and yes I did read them, interpretation which seemed to sadly have happened. Much of this modernism that we were warned about, has seemed to drift to the left. Liberal interpretations of directives that come from Rome are excercised quite often by the USCCB. Just one example of that is the recent flap over Holy Communion under both forms. Communion under both forms was allowed as an experiment that expired in 2005. The bishops requested an extension via Cardinal Arinze of The Congregatio Culto Divino Disciplina Sacramentorum who rpresented the matter to the Holy Father in an audience granted on 9 June 2006 and recieved a response in the negative. Despite that, the USCCB Chairman of the Commitee on the Liturgy recalled the conciliar mandate for more frequent reception of Holy Communion under both forms as a fuller sign of the Eucharistic Banquet. Bottom line, the question was left to diocesan bishops who were then instructed to allow the discretion of the pastors of their respective parish to decide. So in other words, no from the Vatican; the Holy Father himself, dosen`t necessarily mean no. Of course this is only one example of the liberal spin that has overtaken the Church from the unchecked growth of secularistic progressivism. Pax. - Tom T Tue, 22 Nov 2011 07:00:29 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-protestantization-of-the-church.html#comment-8972 If you want to see how much the Holy Days of Obligation have dropped off come to Georgia. In a parish of 700 families about 27 people will be there on Dec. 8th to celebrate the Immaculate Conception. Over 50% of our parish are Latinos who do not attend mass on this date. They are too busy trying to make "Our Lady of Guadalupe" into a holy day. - jay Everett Tue, 22 Nov 2011 04:22:44 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-protestantization-of-the-church.html#comment-8969 In a number of dioceses in the USA, Holy Days of Obligation drop the "Obligation" part (and the additional masses!) if the Holy Day occurs on Saturday or Monday. The justification (rationalization if you prefer) is that we have too few priests in the diocese to preside - they are all worn out from presiding at 3 (or in some cases more) masses on Sunday. A cure for this problem would be more prayer and more fervent prayer for priestly vocations. TeaPot562 - TeaPot562 Mon, 21 Nov 2011 20:22:41 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-protestantization-of-the-church.html#comment-8968 What a great article! The same reasoning applies to us in Scotland. Here more effort goes into condemning our ownership of Trident missiles than in the insistence on catholic doctrine .In the seventies I used to call this behaviour being 'Trendy" and I only recently discovered that a former pope called it 'Modernism'. Last year All saints day fell on a monday and accordingly the hierarchy moved the feast to Sunday because it would be too much for the poor catholic souls to be coerced into going to mass two days running. Where did this lot get their education? In scotland people used to have to walk for three hours or so to attend mass, and that through rain,sleet and snow given our usually poor weather . Such was the depth of faith that the people did it. people and particularly the catholic church thrives in adversity. You only have to look at the strength of faith in the church in times of persecution,including eastern europe during the cold war and the reign of the nazis. Now we have become soft and yet we are still under attack for expounding the tenets of our faith - words like 'hate crime ' or thought crime abound and people are actually being persecuted for speaking out against so-called gay marriage. I want a church where the hierarchy are real and brave leaders of their church because the old 'pay , pray and obey' days are over and no-one is going to follow the current crowd. The old adage 'Lions led by donkeys ' seems to be the order of the day,for now.However Christ said 'the gates of hell shall not prevail against it (the church). Thank you god for Benedict XIV. AMDG. - James Hughes Mon, 21 Nov 2011 16:17:56 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-protestantization-of-the-church.html#comment-8967 It shouldn't be that surprising, considering 6 protestant ministers were invited to help write the new mass. - Eric Brooks Mon, 21 Nov 2011 16:09:38 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-protestantization-of-the-church.html#comment-8963 @marius: I think you misunderstand my metaphor. In Arabian stories, when the magic genie gets out of the bottle, a lot of mischief can take place. Ive made a memo to myself to think twice about using metaphors. - Howard Kainz Mon, 21 Nov 2011 14:16:20 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-protestantization-of-the-church.html#comment-8962 We who recall that Holy Days are not only an obligation but, please Lord, an opportunity to give thanks and be in intimate communion with Our Blessed Lord and Savior, should be polite, direct and firm with our Pastors! We who recall need to TEACH our fellow parishoners and PRAY for our priests. Believe me, your Priest will be uplifted by such an effort! In Christ- Laura - laura Mon, 21 Nov 2011 12:59:56 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-protestantization-of-the-church.html#comment-8961 Change is coming, and it's orthodoxy on the horizon. The young priests aren't impressed with old school liberal claptrap. The Church never changed, people just thought it did. Don't fret; springtime is in the forecast. - francis Mon, 21 Nov 2011 12:06:02 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-protestantization-of-the-church.html#comment-8960 Between the problems described by Prof. Kainz and the hand-waving, the sickeningly inane praise and worship music, the speaking in tongues and the "baptism in the spirit" nonsense that is infecting the Church, it is hard to be optimistic about the future of Catholicism. - Geo Mon, 21 Nov 2011 10:36:18 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-protestantization-of-the-church.html#comment-8959 "But to a great extent “the genie [of Catholic identity] is out of the bottle.” I think the opposite is the case - the "genius of Christianity", as Chateaubriand would have it, is now IN the bottle, firmly corked up and put away on a remote shelf. But the bottle is slowly developing cracks... - Marius Mon, 21 Nov 2011 10:34:33 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-protestantization-of-the-church.html#comment-8958 @Thomas C. Coleman: I touched on some of the issues you mention in my Oct. 8 column, "The Spirit of Vatican II." - Howard Kainz Mon, 21 Nov 2011 06:18:42 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-protestantization-of-the-church.html#comment-8954 Unless I've missed something here, no one has addrssed the question of the probable origins of these very improbable developments. Everyone seems to speak as if the profoudn changes in Catholic life and believe that hve been caried out under the obvious ruse of "The Spirit of Vatican II" happedn innocently and natrually the way an apple falls from a tree. We have the denigrattion of the Sacraments, most glarinly the Eucharist and Penance, but surely also Mtraimony by both contraception and the disrespect aimed at motherhood. The priesthood is treated as an elected office with term lmits that should open to all. all of these developments conform to the plans that we know sinister forces were going to enact becuase some of the evil doers rempented who told the world what there methods and objectives were. Could be with the sinister of designs that so few CAtholics even know who to say the Rosary. People graduate from CAtholic high schools thinking that the Two Great commandments are Remeber to recycle and don't laugh at Ethnic Jokes. If we arer too afraid to proclaim that it is Satan working through human agency that promotes amnesia about Fatima then we are guioly of mortal cowardice. - Thomas C. Coleman, Jr. Sun, 20 Nov 2011 20:28:03 +0100