Comments for The Muslim-Catholic Forum: Can You Name the Animals? at http://www.thecatholicthing.org , comment 1 to 9 out of 9 comments http://www.thecatholicthing.org Fri, 24 May 2013 01:41:48 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-muslim-catholic-forum-can-you-name-the-animals.html#comment-9260 Ms. Johnson, You might also reflect upon the oddity that, while Adam had "the intelligible forms of things impressed into his consciousness (see Tafsir al-Razi) and thereby learn(ed) to attain knowledge discursively," Allah had apparently neglected to do this for the angels who were unable to name the animals. How is it that reality was unintelligible to the angels? Either because reason cannot apprehend it, or because reality itself is unintelligible – it must be one or the other. - Bob Reilly Mon, 19 Dec 2011 11:54:36 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-muslim-catholic-forum-can-you-name-the-animals.html#comment-9259 Please read the UN Arab Human Development Reports, all written by Arabs, for an account of the devastation of science in the Arab world. Since that does not cover the non-Arab Muslim world, I refer you to physicist Pervez Hoodhboy’s book, Islam and Science, which covers the rest of the disaster, as well. The denial of causality in the natural world is mainstay Ash’arite doctrine, which is the majority theological school within Sunni Islam. Read al-Ash’ari, al-Baqilani, al- Ghazali, etc. If you are a student of Islamic theology and you are unaware of the denigration of reason by these thinkers and the extirpation of philosophy that resulted from it, you have a long way to go in your studies. If it is not too self-serving, I suggest you read The Closing of the Muslim Mind, which is actually not the product of prejudice or ignorance but of many years of hard work. - Bob Reilly Mon, 19 Dec 2011 11:35:04 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-muslim-catholic-forum-can-you-name-the-animals.html#comment-9243 I am a student of traditional Islamic Theology and I beg to differ. The negation of causality in Islam is a negation only of necessary causality and not of the observed relations between things. There is a missing middle term in the argument used in your article - apparently 'the denial of cause and effect in the natural world eventually devastated the Muslim realm' but if this conclusion is based only on the fact of Muslims having a metaphysical belief in occasionalism, the argument falls apart. The rational sciences flourished in late Islamic history through the works of such savants as al-Jurjani, al-Taftazani, Mulla Fanari, Mulla Jami, Siyalaquti, Gelenbevi, and countless others. Ottoman scholars discovered the validity of relational 'unfamiliar syllogisms' far before Western logicians did. The saddest thing in your article, however, is that the 'naming' that you refer to as quoted from the Qur'an refers to Adam having the intelligible forms of things impressed into his consciousness (see Tafsir al-Razi) and thereby learning to attain knowledge discursively - quite the opposite of what you claim. This is an article of a very sad prejudice, based on ignorance. Thank you - Karim Johnson Sun, 18 Dec 2011 04:05:49 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-muslim-catholic-forum-can-you-name-the-animals.html#comment-9188 Wonderful article. It brings to mind the antinomy of Islamic anti-reason: the anti-faith of the atheistic naturalist who believes that empirical science comprehends all of reality and if it cannot be proven by sceintific method, then it doesn't exist. The Catholic integration of faith and reason stands balanced between these two extremes. - Thomas G. Tue, 13 Dec 2011 04:57:23 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-muslim-catholic-forum-can-you-name-the-animals.html#comment-9167 I strongly recommend the book "The Regensburg Lecture" by our own Fr. Schall. It is great os so many levels. I am going to send it to a couple people for Christmas presents. - Louise Sun, 11 Dec 2011 06:13:02 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-muslim-catholic-forum-can-you-name-the-animals.html#comment-9161 Thank you, Bruce. I had recently seen the quote from Confucius. Priceless. - Bob Reilly Sat, 10 Dec 2011 09:46:37 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-muslim-catholic-forum-can-you-name-the-animals.html#comment-9160 My thanks to may friend Bob Reilly for another wonderful column on the possibilities of rapprochement with Muslims: when such activity seems more and more unlikely, and such little of it as there may be seems unfruitful, it is good to see that the search for common ground is always worthwhile and always bears fruit. To take nothing away from this remarkable article, we do have to bear in mind the situation of Christians -- and other non-Muslims -- in Muslim countries. It is one thing to dialogue in special fora created for that purpose, and one thing again to dialogue with Muslims in non-Muslim countries; but when Islam gains the upper hand, we face such situations as the persecution of the Copts in Egypt, the virtual destruction of the Christian Churches in Iraq; the constant harassment and violation of Christian women in Islamic lands. The situation is not pretty, and it is a constant: one has to give credence to those commentators on Islam who see it as a constitutive element of the religion. The question remains whether Muslims can successful resolve the epistemological challenge intra mures. The answer, to date, is that it appears not; and in fact, those who do resolve the epistemological challenge often find themselves embracing the Christian Faith, at great peril to themselves and their loved ones, or, if not embracing it, coming to terms with it for other than the merely tactical imperatives of jihad. To put it another way, Muslims may well take down the wall of separation for action on common ground; but especially since 9-11, Christians and others have erected their own defensive walls. Press on, Bob, and show us how to do the work with you. It isn't easy, but it is always worthwhile, and Our Lord expects nothing less of us. - Dave Sat, 10 Dec 2011 09:35:06 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-muslim-catholic-forum-can-you-name-the-animals.html#comment-9158 "If you cannot name a thing, can you know it?" Precisely, Mr. Reilly. Please forward that quote to those who yesterday declared the Ft. Hood massacre, "work place violence". Thank you. - Ray Hunkins Sat, 10 Dec 2011 09:07:30 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-muslim-catholic-forum-can-you-name-the-animals.html#comment-9151 This is a wonderful article that sympathetically but honestly shows the problems we face with a Muslim world philosophically dominated by voluntarism. The importance of Adam's actions in Genesis are manifest, not only for the action itself but for the notion that naming is the only duty given him in paradise. An important explanation from none other than Confucius appears in his Analects (XIII Tsze-lu, Chapter 3): 1. Tsze-lu said, “The ruler of Wei has been waiting for you, in order with you to administer the government. What will you consider the first thing to be done?” 2. The Master replied, “What is necessary is to rectify names.” 3. “So, indeed!” said Tsze-lu. “You are wide of the mark! Why must there be such rectification?” 4. The Master said, “How uncultivated you are, Yu! A superior man, in regard to what he does not know, shows a cautious reserve. 5. “If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things. If language be not in accordance with the truth of things, affairs cannot be carried on to success. 6. “When affairs cannot be carried on to success, proprieties and music will not flourish. When proprieties and music do not flourish, punishments will not be properly awarded. When punishments are not properly awarded, the people do not know how to move hand or foot. 7. “Therefore a superior man considers it necessary that the names he uses may be spoken appropriately, and also that what he speaks may be carried out appropriately. What the superior man requires is just that in his words there may be nothing incorrect.” - Bruce Fingerhut Sat, 10 Dec 2011 03:01:30 +0100