Comments for The Gorgias Myth at http://www.thecatholicthing.org , comment 1 to 4 out of 4 comments http://www.thecatholicthing.org Tue, 21 May 2013 11:25:29 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-gorgias-myth.html#comment-9212 Manfred,cheers to your marvelously wack non sequitur! One of Fr Schall's more illuminating articles of late, to be sure. Tx, Fr. - xabi kiano Thu, 15 Dec 2011 08:18:45 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-gorgias-myth.html#comment-9190 It boggles my little mind to imagine that one could muster the temerity, much less, that they would assert the impertinence necessary to condescend to the straight Fr. Schall. I suppose that C.S. Lewis would explain it as he did in Mere Christianity as that one sin that we see so readily in others yet are unable to see in ourselves. Hubris is blind to itself and as Aristotle tells, a small error in the beginning is enormous in the end. This is a worthy meditation on real consequences and apparent consequences- how anyone could come up with such an inane question as “or will everyone be saved?”of such a man as Fr. Schall does not know to whom he speaks. - Achilles Tue, 13 Dec 2011 06:44:44 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-gorgias-myth.html#comment-9189 I entered the Church in the Novus Ordo, in February 1991, and I never had a doubt as to the existence and effects of mortal sin. The Church does speak of grave matter -- and she did before the Council as well: for a sin to be mortal, there must be gravity of matter, full knowledge, and full consent; and, then as now, a belief that venial matter is grave (when in fact it is not) bumps the gravity of the matter into the red zone. Then as now, grave matter does not in and of itself create the inevitability of mortal sin: full knowledge and full consent are required. I write this because I have been reading for many years as to how the Novus Ordo vitiated the traditional teachings of the Church. I don't doubt for a moment that great confusion descended upon the Church in the train of the Council; and that many progressive bishops and priests made hay while the sun shined in order to muddy up settled waters and undo in the minds of the faithful centuries of pacifically accepted teaching. Nonetheless, the fullness of the Faith subsists in the Catholic Church, and in her alone, then as now; and those who search for the fullness of the Truth, then as now, will find it. Manfred's question to Fr. Schall is wrong both in that it is disrespectful and that it is erroneous. The Church taught long before the Council about the baptism of desire and about invincible ignorance; those who through no fault of their own cannot received baptism in the ordinary way yet desire to be united with God as they know him, nonetheless receive the grace of the sacrament, as each soul is granted the graces needed for salvation regardless of the circumstances; and those who out of invincible ignorance are outside the Church or of full communion with her are not thereby excluded from salvation. Thus: anyone who dies in a state of grace, Catholic or not, will be saved; and no one who dies in mortal sin, Catholic or not, will not be saved. In the 1917 edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia the possibility of salvation for Protestants is addressed; and the presumption is that if they have been unable to overcome ignorance as to the reality of the Church and her claims, if they have lived their lives in accordance to good conscience, and if they die in a state of grace -- without mortal sin -- to heaven they go. None of this teaching has changed since the Council. It may not be enunciated as well as we may like, but it is there and easy to find. As to my first point, no priest should be addressed in the manner in which our writer has posed the question. Fr. Schall is charitable and will let the slight pass; but in dire need as we are of good priest these days, cavilous, captious remarks really should not go unnoticed. Fr. Schall's commentary on the Gorgias is remarkable for its pointing to the ability of the natural mind, unenlightened by divine revelation but nonetheless grasping for truth, to come to an understanding not only of right and wrong, of justice and punishment, but also of purgatory. One may hope now, as one did before the Council, that these remarkable thinkers unpossessed of divine revelation are now in a place of light, happiness, and peace. Indeed, our Faith enjoins us to hope for it. As God wills that all people come to salvation and as He gives to each soul precisely what it needs to attain salvation, we may yet indeed be confident in the hope, in the hope of our salvation, and of all people of good will. - Dave Tue, 13 Dec 2011 06:16:56 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2011/the-gorgias-myth.html#comment-9185 Interesting how different cultures outline judgement, good and evil. In my Roman Catholic culture we have had VENIAL and MORTAL sins which affected whether or not the person continued in the State of Grace. One knows that one Mortal Sin, for which one has no remorse and did non confess, could consign that person's soul to Hell for eternity. In the Novus Ordo Religion there exists GRAVE MATTER. It is somehat vague in its definitions of the this subject as Novus Ordo people normally have not confessed their sins for years. Here is a question for you, Fr. Schall-will only Catholics who die in the State of Grace be saved or will everyone be saved? - Manfred Tue, 13 Dec 2011 02:18:46 +0100