Comments for No Cooperation with Evil at http://www.thecatholicthing.org , comment 1 to 14 out of 14 comments http://www.thecatholicthing.org Sun, 19 May 2013 13:53:01 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/no-cooperation-with-evil.html#comment-10283 And here is the failure of our bishops. They have put much effort, time and money into preserving the right of private employers to not pay for contraception. Yet, from them, the rest of the clergy and even most of the conservative lay organizations, absolute silence on two companion issues: 1) the right of rank and file workers not to pay for contraception. The Blunt amendment, crafted with the input of the USCCB, let the bosses opt out but not the employees. If they have a pro-contracept boss, their premiums go to contraception. Not a word about this, as if workers are dirt. 2) And while fighting for the right of bosses not to have contraception, has any of the criticism leveled against politicans been extended to bosses that elect to pay for contraception and even abortion? Lots of talk about certain politicans not being allowed communion but not a word against rich and powerful businessmen, even those honored at Catholic events, etc. - Kurt Wed, 07 Mar 2012 09:09:52 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/no-cooperation-with-evil.html#comment-10277 After a few days of pondering this wonderful article, my thoughts distill into the frustration of "when" and the curiosity of "how." Like one the prophets of old, I ask, "How long oh Lord?" How much longer will your Church and your faithful children have to endure this monstrous evil? And then there are times, when I deliciously wonder how God is going to bring it all crashing down on the Left over this issue in the same vein that working through John Paul II, brought down the Soviet Union. I wonder when our Church leaders will finally tell all elected Catholic politicians that it's either this or either that, choose one, you can't have both. I wonder when Catholics as a whole will wake and see the inconsistent hypocrisy of a President who calls a child a mistake, embraces Saul Alinsky who dedicated his book and his life's work to Lucifer...the first radical, yet this President calls himself a Christian. This I know and I know it with all absolute surety, IT WILL coming crashing down for the Left and their culture of death. It's not a matter of IF but WHEN and if it happens while I'm still alive, I will admit here and unabashedly, I am going to belly laugh and relish the moment. This is one time I must admit, I will enjoy observing my enemies ideologically destroyed, swept from their position of influence, throughly discredited, marginalized, exiled into the political wilderness, and I will not lift a hand to help them. - Frank Wed, 07 Mar 2012 02:37:10 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/no-cooperation-with-evil.html#comment-10252 To "Dave": Yes, my apologies. I did misconstrue your question. I see now what you're asking, and your concern is well-taken. Please note that in Fr. Ashley's example, the cooperation is done under duress. And I suppose we'd also have to understand what it means in this circumstance to "operate the vacuum pump." If by "operate" it, we mean for example that the person only does the maintenance on it, and if the person is doing the job under severe duress, then this might be (depending upon the particulars of the situation) "immediate material cooperation." Note, however, that even were we to consider it such, this too would be impermissible. To say it is "formal" cooperation suggests that one is not acting under duress and that one cooperates with the act knowingly and willingly. That is to say, you WANT to be part of performing abortions. I think this is what Fr. Ashley is driving at. My point is that everything about the distinction between "formal" and "material" cooperation is meant, contrary to the way it is often used, to keep people from imagining that, even if I didn't do the abortion myself (or, "even if I didn't turn on the gas on the Jews myself), then I can't be held responsible. Bunk. Sure, we're all interconnected, and thus we all "cooperate" with evil in some way. But we need to be vigilant about not allowing our "cooperation" in this distant sense to become much more like real "cooperation" in the sense that we're directly involved. Above all, never ever check your conscience at the door when you go about the business of your life. - Randall B. Smith Mon, 05 Mar 2012 08:58:58 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/no-cooperation-with-evil.html#comment-10251 Dr. Smith: I think we miscommunicated. I haven't accused you of anything as my question was directed to the source you cited. My question put more clearly is why wouldn't the operation of the pump rise to the level of formal participation in evil? Thanks for the clarification. - Dave Mon, 05 Mar 2012 05:52:47 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/no-cooperation-with-evil.html#comment-10250 The Author Replies Again: The reason the distinction between "formal" and "material" cooperation is important becomes clearer when one reads in tandem the comments of "John" and "jsmitty" above. "John" is quite right to point out that the distinction can be used to justify much mischief. That, of course, was the point of my article. On the other hand, as "jsmitty" rightly points out, there is no way in this valley of tears of not "cooperating" with evil in at least some ways. We all pay taxes, and our tax money may go to things we think morally wrong, such as Planned Parenthood or a military venture we judge immoral. We buy medicine from a pharmaceutical company, and they use those profits to make contraceptive and abortifacient drugs. We cannot avoid some "cooperation" with evil. And yet, we must never directly facilitate evil ("formal cooperation"), and we should always be vigilant in doing what we can to avoid cooperating even in mediate ways as much as possible. It's easy to dismiss these distinctions as theological nit-picking --- easy, that is, until you have to deal with the messy realities of the world. One's moral theology needs to be as sophisticated as the complexities of the world demand. At the same time, one's commitment to do good should be as simple and straightforward as can be. In short, one needs to be "wise as a serpent, and gentle as a dove." When you feel that you don't quite understand how all this complicated business about "formal" and "material" cooperation works or how it applies, you might consider simply heeding the counsel of the Magisterium of the Church. If the Pope and the bishops say "don't," then don't. - Randall B. Smith Mon, 05 Mar 2012 05:21:15 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/no-cooperation-with-evil.html#comment-10249 In reply to jsmitty: If a Catholic organization is self-insured, HHS still expects it to provide insurance benefits for these atrocities. St. Michael the Archangel, defend us in battle! - Mark Mon, 05 Mar 2012 04:49:02 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/no-cooperation-with-evil.html#comment-10243 Thank you for your reply, Professor Smith. I don't trade in gossip but rather facts. All you had to do was Google Father Hesburgh and read and corroborate everything I said. Fr. Hesburgh's cooperation was FORMAL and this occurred almost fifty years ago. We are reaping today what we sowed then. - Manfred Mon, 05 Mar 2012 02:08:27 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/no-cooperation-with-evil.html#comment-10239 How is it that moral decisions have become so convoluted? On what is all this formal cooperation, material cooperation, etc., etc. based? It all seems to be some clever way to rationalize a lot of ill doing, witness David Gibson's initial talking points in the article. Don't get me wrong; I'm sympathetic with Prof. Smith's position. I've had occasion to read about Bismark's persecution of the Catholic Church in 1870's Germany. It met fierce resistance from the German Catholic bishops, clergy, and laymen of that time, many of whom went to prison. I'll bet there wasn't any fine tuning in those decisions by faithful Catholics of that time. We need witnesses today, not too-clever-by-half mouthpieces. - John Sun, 04 Mar 2012 18:00:30 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/no-cooperation-with-evil.html#comment-10237 I don't quite follow. Maybe you didn't choose the title of this piece but the standard of "no cooperation with evil" is impossible. There is no way for a Catholic hospital to avoid some material cooperation with these sins. 1) Is it really the case that having Catholic hospitals buy only policies that don't cover birth control means that Catholic hospitals are not in any way subsidizing these things. If a Catholic hospital buys health insurance from company ABC and ABC writes other policies to other companies that do cover birth control and or abortion, then the Catholic hospital is still subsidizing these things by the nature of risk pooling, no? Insurance companies pay claims out of general funds...they don't earmark moneys from one customer to only pay claims from that customer. All the insurance companies customers are subsidizing all the claims paid by that company. There's no way around that. And I don't think it would be possible to buy health insurance from a company that does not offer coverage for this at all. There is still material participation. I suppose one could make the case then that by buying any health policies for their workers Catholic hospitals are choosing the good of not allowing their workers to go without health insurance is done while tolerating the lesser evil of having some small but non-zero amount of money go to things that the Church condemns. But then if we say this, does the argument not work if this mandate should go into effect and the Church is forced to buy uniform policies which do cover these things explicitly? I think the USCCB was smart to frame this issue as being about the more general principle that a religiously affiliated organizations should be able to express moral convictions free from government interference. This business of "material participation" as a way of framing the issue makes no sense. - jsmitty Sun, 04 Mar 2012 15:18:14 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/no-cooperation-with-evil.html#comment-10236 The Author Replies: Nowhere did I say that operating the pump is not immediate cooperation with evil. Re-read the quotation from Fr. Ashley, and you will see quite the reverse. MAKING a pump that can be used for many things, but is ALSO used for abortions, is a different matter. Abortion doctors use surgical gloves, thus surgical glove makers make something abortion doctors use. They "cooperate," but no "immediately." Matters are not always as crystal clear as we would like. There is plenty of room for not judging others and yet for always checking one's own conscience before God. As for Fr. Hesburgh, I have no knowledge of the events you describe, so I can't comment, any more than I could comment on any other gossip, other than to say that, whatever people said or didn't say to the Pope, I guess he didn't "soften" the Church's teaching, but reiterated it against some pretty serious opposition. He stood firm when the rest of the world turned against him. We should be so faithful when our time comes. - Randall B. Smith Sun, 04 Mar 2012 13:15:46 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/no-cooperation-with-evil.html#comment-10235 This is a fine column, Professor Smith. Question: When Fr. Theodore Hesburgh, at the time president of Notre Dame, arranged for John D. Rockefeller to have a private audience with Pope Paul VI in order to have the pope "soften" the Church's teaching on contraception, and then subsequently support a Notre Dame professor who challenged Humanae Vitae in 1968-would you describe his behavior as formal or material cooperation in an enormous evil? Thank you for your reply. - Manfred Sun, 04 Mar 2012 09:10:43 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/no-cooperation-with-evil.html#comment-10233 Dr. Smith, that the operation of the vacuum for an abortion is merely immediate material cooperation and not formal cooperation itself strains credulity, as the abortion cannot occur without the operation of the pump and the operator knows it and operates it anyway. Perhaps you can elucidate how it is the lesser rather than the greater evil, inasmuch as several wills are directly intending the abortion, including the vacuum operator. This is the second instance in a short timeframe in which The Catholic Thing contains an article that cites an ordinary person for extraordinary bravery. We would do well to remember that we are all ordinary people and that God expects this kind of bravery from us, as you point out, lest, as the Scriptures say, we receive the grace of God in vain: not a happy place to be at the time of our particular judgements. - Dave Sun, 04 Mar 2012 04:14:00 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/no-cooperation-with-evil.html#comment-10232 Wonderful story about the maintainence manager! I bet I remember that forever. The power of just one person in a key situation to halt this holocaust. I would love to see an article that says why it is still immoral to kill an abortionist even though in many cases it will literally prevent thousands if not tens of thousands of other (perhaps unknowing) murders. Does the fact that the abortionist doesn't believe he's committing murder mitigate the reality of the death count? - Jacob R Sun, 04 Mar 2012 03:53:13 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/no-cooperation-with-evil.html#comment-10229 I feel like it stretches beyond that you're doing something in vain. Just Ike Obama's healthcare even though you're doing something to better others or "help" them you're doing it because you have to not because you want to. Charity is a chosen option which Christ proclaimed, you have to choose to do good you cannot be made to do it. The Church is ready for war and I love it! - Ken Sat, 03 Mar 2012 20:49:56 +0100