Comments for Can We Please Have Our Own Church? at http://www.thecatholicthing.org , comment 1 to 34 out of 20 comments http://www.thecatholicthing.org Wed, 19 Jun 2013 21:51:20 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/can-we-please-have-our-own-church.html#comment-11213 "One of the most disciplined religions in this country is Mormonism. They marry for life, they do not abort,they frown on contraception.Why,they do not even consume caffeine! " I am a Catholic living in Utah in a county that is 80% Mormon. This is simply not true. They divorce just as readily as anyone else. They abort, but usually only before marriage. They contracept with abandon; it's easy to mistake their enjoyment of larger families with "frowning" on contraception, but it is not at all the same thing. Most of them even drink caffeine, though many eschew coffee and tea. - lethargic Fri, 04 May 2012 12:38:19 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/can-we-please-have-our-own-church.html#comment-11181 The LCWR has the bishops over a barrel. When the Immaculate Heart nuns left they took valuable LA real estate with them (having transferred ownership to their own account. The Jesuits are to blame for the collapse of the sisterhoods having lobbied for the marginalization of the Sacred heart seeing it as an obstacle to ecumenism. The Vatican hangs tough with th SSPX demanding conformity. With the LCWR it grants itself 5 years to cajole them. I recently previewed a dissertation by Msgr Nydegger (Seton Hall) on priestly formation. I was horrified at the surrnder to educational psychology in the place of tradition. I would send any candidate for the priesthood to an Eastern orthodox Seminary where he would get a strong dose of tradition. - anthony sistrom Wed, 02 May 2012 12:12:59 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/can-we-please-have-our-own-church.html#comment-11177 Well said Thomas and I completely agree with Mr. Royal’s article. That being said, I have an uneasiness about this I don’t fully understand but will attempt to explain. If supposedly loving parents not only allow destructive dissent for all of the formative years of their children (and in many cases praise it), when the children become adults, the parents then question and criticize the same behavior, won’t their children become indignant and rebel? I am not attempting to let these nuns off the hook for their choices, but I understand why they are scratching their heads saying to themselves; how could this be? “We along with many priest and bishops were the darlings of the church for so many years doing and promoting the exact same things (heresy) and now WE are visited upon?” The sensitive feminist types may be prone to declare male chauvinism. It’s as though we are cutting off the serpent’s tail rather than his head leaving him capable and very likely to regenerate another tail. Personally I would find more optimism if the Holy Father would at least tell them they have been misled by some unfaithful and heretical Shepherds, but they are being visited because of the overt and continued manner of their disobedience. If families operated with such vagueness and nuance about truth, right and wrong and with lack of fraternal correction wouldn't they show the sames signs of dysfunction society and the Church are exhibiting? - Grady Wed, 02 May 2012 07:03:24 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/can-we-please-have-our-own-church.html#comment-11166 enness and others: May we clear something up? One of the most disciplined religions in this country is Mormonism. They marry for life, they do not abort,they frown on contraception.Why,they do not even consume caffeine! The Mormon Tabernacle Choir is outstanding. Unfortunately, none of their religion can stand scrutiny. Christ never visited North America, the American Indians were not the lost tribe of Israel,they are not the Chosen People,there never was a person named Moroni and there were no Golden Plates. If you attended a Mormon service and found it edifying, great. Congregationalists determine their beliefs by vote. A friend who resides in Vermont had been Presbyterian but as there are no Presbyterian houses of worship in VT, he attended a "Congo" (his term)church when one day it was suggested that since the mental image of the Holy Spirit was so difficult to conjure up, the congregation would only worship the Father and the Son.This was accomplished by a show of hands. - Manfred Wed, 02 May 2012 03:52:19 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/can-we-please-have-our-own-church.html#comment-11165 This post was masterful and refreshing. You hit the nail on the head. - Jason Wed, 02 May 2012 01:40:17 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/can-we-please-have-our-own-church.html#comment-11161 Amen! You've summarized the issue perfectly. - Maureen Tue, 01 May 2012 17:41:49 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/can-we-please-have-our-own-church.html#comment-11160 Manfred: My job took me to a Congregational church, which is considered a Protestant denomination (I'm sorry but I don't know what you mean by "in the true sense"), on Holy Thursday. The liturgy that night so resembled the Catholic Mass that for the briefest of seconds I wondered where I was, and it occurred to me that one could theoretically switch buildings and celebrants while people weren't looking and most of them might not even know the difference. I did not partake of their communion, which I did not believe to have been properly consecrated. I did, however, find the whole thing remarkable -- "They're Catholic and just don't know it yet!" Well, maybe that's a stretch, but I can dream, right? Flamen: for good or ill, 'ghost' has a different connotation to a large number of speakers of a certain incredibly prominent language, in part thanks to TV programs that weren't around a couple decades ago. It even implies something potentially malevolent. I think they have good reasons for not wanting to invoke such an image. - enness Tue, 01 May 2012 17:12:54 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/can-we-please-have-our-own-church.html#comment-11158 Though you do not directly ask why these people do not leave the Church, that is what I am interested in. My belief is that, as Deacon Peitler says, they are emotionally and spiritually immature. I say that as someone who finds that every day I have to struggle with this myself. They do not want to go to another Church. They want ours to cease to exist as we know it. In this sense they are anything but tolerant. Or as I've seen it in practice, they are tolerant of anyone who agrees with them. The hardest part rest with all of us. I believe that our task to to do battle with the ideas that they represent without losing our Christian sense of calmness. That last part is going to be hard, especially for me. I hope that this makes sense to all of you. - Newly Minted Tue, 01 May 2012 14:30:47 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/can-we-please-have-our-own-church.html#comment-11157 Would we as parents tolerate heroin dealers lurking around around neighborhoods? Although tempted have at them ourselves we would call the police with hopes that the authorities would put the fiends away. So when priests and nuns such as Tammyt describes above who call those who believe what Holy Mother Chruch teaches "fundamentalists' or, or comically for it is accurate "orthdox" what do we do? Pope Benedict has suggested that we might need to have a smaller Chruch. Then for the sake of the immortal souls of our children let us, and him, get on with it! Any of those of you who have not been exposed to this Satanic treachory ought to consider yourselves fortunate. But please understand that for many who live in the shell of what was once Christendom daily enounteres with those who spread doubt and outright error have become the norm. Some of them are innocents who have been misled, but others do not believe in Christ any more than a pig believes in Sunday, and they are intent on destroying the Church founded by Our Lord on the Rock of Peter and repolacing it communalism and sexual anarchy. They are not all graying. They will see to it Obama is reelcted and then they will be hailed as the Good Catholics, while those loyal to the True Church will be labeled traitors to the New Order who support monogamy, patriarchy, and homophobia. It does no good to be kind and patient with those who seek to cruicfy Christ again. That is foolish and cowardice. A huge portion of two generation of baptized CAtholics whose grandparents would never miss Mass have become like the charactere in The Godfather who only use churches for weddings and funerals. Cardinal Dolan has said, "We didn't pick this fight." Really, now? How is that so many Catholcis voted for the most clearly pagan person ever to lead this country on the grounds that such issues as the protection of human life were less imortant than revenge agasint the rich and denying the right of our country to protect its borders? - Thomas C. Coleman, Jr. Tue, 01 May 2012 14:24:25 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/can-we-please-have-our-own-church.html#comment-11152 The problem is, although heresy is a sin, it's a sin to schism also. And if we let them schism we would probably have to start going through a long dialgue with their leaders like we do with the SPPX to get the return of the union. I'd like them to no longer be able to hurt ignorant Catholics too but we should try cleverly and calmly (if we just yell they'll feel to defensive and too hyped-up to accept the truth promptly) to correct their ways since the church wants them to be saved also. I always think they don't they make ignorant clergy go to a manditory speech where the historial reasons and facts for papal power, and church teaching are explained throughtly or something. And the documents of Vatican II with quotes /excerpts from it. My mom met one nun who thought catholics do not believe in the real presence (Eucharist) and that my mom was orthodox catholic not catholic. - Tammyt Tue, 01 May 2012 07:30:17 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/can-we-please-have-our-own-church.html#comment-11151 Sue, exactly which are my unkind statements? I've said there are a range of options in Protestantism. That I don't believe Christ's Church is fully there, but that some of it is and that Protestants themselves are often better Christians than the average Catholic. And that Catholics ought to have a right to choose their Church as Protestants are able to make their own choices. Is to say this, which is almost entirely descriptive, somehow unkind? - Robert Royal Tue, 01 May 2012 07:09:22 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/can-we-please-have-our-own-church.html#comment-11150 Manfred, It is a little like fingernails on a chalkboard to continually hear you speaking poorly of Pope John Paul the Great- It is clearly a case of misattribution of cause and effect- and for someone claiming to be so steeped in ‘tradition’ your logic skills leave more than little to be desired. Fr. Rutler said correctly, “Tradition is the DNA of civilization, but just as racism is a misuse use of race, traditionalism that has become preoccupied with itself is a misuse of tradition.” Of greater concern is your apparent sense of history- you sound as ideological as the dissenting sister at times and I ask you to ask yourself, what is the foundation of your assertions? Perhaps you are your own magisterium? - Achilles Tue, 01 May 2012 07:02:51 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/can-we-please-have-our-own-church.html#comment-11149 Thank you, Mr. Royal, for putting into print a thought that has been buzzing around in my cranium for quite some time now. It's time for the dissidents to be honest and to find a new home! - Rob Federle Tue, 01 May 2012 06:42:25 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/can-we-please-have-our-own-church.html#comment-11144 Wow - Protestants have beliefs and churches that Jesus never meant them to be???? You are entitled to your own opinion - so perhaps we shall all just have to wait until our own judgement days and see if we all end up in the same place with Jesus, Mary, the Saints and especially with God. And although you have unkind words to say about all of the other mainline denominations - blessings on your own journey of life. - Sue Foley-Currie Mon, 30 Apr 2012 19:40:36 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/can-we-please-have-our-own-church.html#comment-11143 This is a well laid out article, Dr. Royal, but there is a lacuna which I don't believe is your fault. Cdl Dolan just admitted to a forty year failure on the part of the hierarchy to teach catechesis. There has also been a forty year failure to impose discipline. The term "dual magisterium" goes back decades and what is has meant is: We, the gnostic dissenters, know what Catholicism really is. The Pope and the bishops don't. Listen to us and not to them. We will lead you on the straight path. This has gone on for decades without penalty and all the comments above demonstrate the tremendous losses the Catholic people have sustained as Tony Esolen enumerates. Twenty-five years of this neglect and nonfeasance occurred on the watch of John Paul (the Great (??) who admitted himself that he was not comfortable with ADMINISTRATION. I asked Msgr. William Smith+, theology professor at Dunwoodie,years ago what had occurred. He said simply "The Church has lost Its mind." - Manfred Mon, 30 Apr 2012 18:58:45 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/can-we-please-have-our-own-church.html#comment-11142 Mr. Royal, I was struck by the first part of your essay...those days in the late 50s and early 60s when Catholicism meant something to its members and was respected by its non members. You are correct. Those days are long gone. Our culture has changed in ways we could never have anticipated. I often wonder how things would have evolved in the Church if Pope John XXIII had never "opened the windows." Catholicism has been on a downward slope ever since Vatican II. How would our church be different today if Vatican II had never happened? It would make a fascinating essay. MIght you give it a try? - will manley Mon, 30 Apr 2012 18:34:00 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/can-we-please-have-our-own-church.html#comment-11140 WELL said! Thank you. - Mack Hall Mon, 30 Apr 2012 16:40:08 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/can-we-please-have-our-own-church.html#comment-11139 I entirely agree. I used to be Catholic. I found that I did not agree with essential Catholic teachings. Now I'm happily Protestant. But I still have great respect and tolerance for the Catholic faith. Everyone should have freedom to comfortably practice what they believe, without having to compromise their beliefs because of others. - Paul Rimmer Mon, 30 Apr 2012 13:52:29 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/can-we-please-have-our-own-church.html#comment-11138 The thing that the nuns want to overlook is the most obvious thing of all. They trumpet their vocation to serve the poor -- for example -- and will not acknowledge the devastation that their apostasy has caused for the poor. Instead they primly speak for the Holy Spirit, saying that the very withering away of their orders is a GIFT of God to be embraced cheerfully. Tell it to the millions of kids who are thereby sentenced to the horrible and amoral schools in our cities. Tell it to hospital patients who no longer receive any spiritual care. Tell it to people generally who desperately need some evident sign in their daily lives that this world of Newarks and Detroits is not the end of all things. - Tony Esolen Mon, 30 Apr 2012 12:11:44 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/can-we-please-have-our-own-church.html#comment-11136 @Jacob "I'm reminded, believe it or not, of a Bob Marley song" I will believe it, not only for the lyrics, but for the simple yet often unacknowledged fact that Marley, became a convert, specifically to the ethiopian orthodox church. - Aeneas Mon, 30 Apr 2012 11:16:15 +0100