Comments for United States — Human Rights Abuser? at http://www.thecatholicthing.org , comment 1 to 18 out of 18 comments http://www.thecatholicthing.org Wed, 19 Jun 2013 21:44:51 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/united-states-human-rights-abuser.html#comment-11496 Yes, the death penalty is only a terror for those who have no belief in the transcendental. One of the many, many ironies of the materialist way of thought is that life deemed not worth living should be taken with no trial, no defense, no appeal and no testimony. It hardly matters whether the victim is old and tired or has a genetic difference in the womb. Yet a Charles Manson (or insert your favorite villain) must be preserved because...because that is a life worth living? That is quality of life? How much better to receive the last rights, make a good confession and have a "death with dignity". The good thief went straight to paradise. On the other hand, if one does not believe in paradise there is a bit of a problem. One might even use the word "atrocity", but it would still be a gross overstatement. - Other Joe Sun, 20 May 2012 02:04:55 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/united-states-human-rights-abuser.html#comment-11490 And, of course, the Church allows for the death penalty. - Austin Ruse Sat, 19 May 2012 17:47:07 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/united-states-human-rights-abuser.html#comment-11489 Scotty, if we use your set of categories, it is clear that you are committing a human rights violation by torturing logic here on a website whose patrons and participants are seekers and respecters of Truth, the kind you discover, not the kind you invent. I for one feel tortured every time you put forward your subjective sentimental views masquerading as "philosophy" if only because you mentioned here that you are teaching RCIA and perhaps contributing to warping the minds of future Catholics. What if the RCIA participants are unable to see how incredibly horrific are your assumptions? May God have mercy on us all. Finally, Scotty, asking the UN human rights council to give us advice on morality is like my wife and I asking for parenting advice from an incestuous pedophile. Dear Other Joe, I don’t know why I write anything at all to Scotty, you are so much more charitable and intelligent in your responses. Keep up the good fight brother. Achilles - Achilles Sat, 19 May 2012 14:03:08 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/united-states-human-rights-abuser.html#comment-11488 Other Joe: "Jesus has provided with you with a consistent and well thought ethic." There are numerous problems with this approach, not the least being the multiplicity of interpretations inside and outside the Scriptures of Jesus' ethic. One way of looking at today's polarized debates is as a continued argument over the correct interpretation of the importance and meaning of Christ (it is to be noted that much of today's moral debates are not commented upon by Christ, and so we are left with various extrapolations and interpretations). "You will find nothing there about approving of torture, liking war, and an interesting take on stoning." I agree, of course! But, unfortunately, no U.S. party seems interested in reflecting this broad ethic: on on hand, there is a party interested in stopping abortion and euthanasia, but less interested in stopping torture, war, and capital punishment; on the other, a party interested in the latter, but not the former. Unfortunately, there are plenty of Christians who support torture and the death penalty (observe the majority of Christian history for details). - Scotty Ellis Sat, 19 May 2012 13:30:15 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/united-states-human-rights-abuser.html#comment-11476 Dear Mr. Ellis. Jesus has provided with you with a consistent and well thought ethic. I recommend his words to you. You will find nothing there about approving of torture, liking war, and an interesting take on stoning. One cannot be a Christian and be for torture. One may, alas, be a sinner and be similar to the straw man you describe and be for death in all of its forms. One may proclaim oneself a Christian, and even visit a Catholic website to spread mischief. - Other Joe Sat, 19 May 2012 02:28:06 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/united-states-human-rights-abuser.html#comment-11468 Other Joe: "Mr. Ellis seems to confuse his categories in a fallen world. He imagines that what is needed is an elite of non-sinners to throw the first stone and govern the rest of us." I'm confused how you came to this conclusion. I would like a consistent and well-thought ethic, and I am simply pointing out that there is something wrong with approving of something like torture while condemning abortion. "Politicizing morality always brings widespread unhappiness as the historical record clearly shows." How on earth can you have law without a coherent morality? Achilles: "You are an advocate for the Brave New World, Scotty, and you don't seem to know it." I do think that wanting to outlaw torture and the death penalty and for the government to mitigate the effects of poverty to the best of its ability is a far cry from Huxley's dystopian future. There are more subtle shades of thought and philosophy that exist between the party lines - wherever an interest in honesty and truth supersedes group-thought and our loyalty to our social labels. I do hope in the future you will judge me more upon what I say than these warrant-less accusations. "Certainly we have terrible faults, but to subject ourselves to the order of death for correction?" I don't understand. If we have faults, wouldn't it be nice to have someone else point them out to us? Or, rather, isn't this a case where we KNOW the faults, but have, as a nation, stood by and done relatively nothing? If the U.N. is lying, if the U.S. has not committed atrocities and violated human rights, I could understand the article's outrage. But since we HAVE committed these crimes, why should we be upset that an international organization is investigating them? Or are you denying that we have violated human rights? - Scotty Ellis Fri, 18 May 2012 14:49:08 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/united-states-human-rights-abuser.html#comment-11467 There is no excuse for the US to permit abortion, and I hope the author supports abolition of abortion, rather than the weak-kneed incrementalism that we've seen the past few decades. That being said, the UN was built on a lie (remember Alger Hiss?), and has propped up communist dictatorships dealing many times higher abortion rates than the US. This is not an accident - it follows from the atheist, materialist view of man as a material, rather than spiritual unit. Even though Stalin did make abortion illegal for a time, it was only in the service of the country's demographics, not for any compunction about the children's lives. The difference between the communist countries and the US is that we have the Declaration of Independence - that declares all men to be created equal - and even acknowledges God to be "the Supreme Judge", at that. That is what does make us exceptional. The problem is that the Constitution did not do a good job of securing those inalienable rights - especially with regard to the 3/5 person slavery wimpout. That is our country's original sin. Was it redeemed by the blood of 500,000 men in the Civil War? Maybe we all thought so, but then Roe v. Wade decision cast us once more into the pit of sin. What will it take to extricate ourselves this time? As for the Islamic countries you name - I believe they proceed from an assumption of Sharia law, a structure that proves equally noxious and totalitarian as Communism. In fact, there has been a fair amount of collaboration between Islamists and Communists, so I don't think those countries are good standards to compare to. Rather than comparing ourselves to other countries, maybe we should compare ourselves to the ideal held up by the Declaration of Independence - and make sure we live up to it. - Sue Fri, 18 May 2012 11:32:06 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/united-states-human-rights-abuser.html#comment-11465 You are an advocate for the Brave New World, Scotty, and you don't seem to know it. Certainly we have terrible faults, but to subject ourselves to the order of death for correction? You are off the rails Scotty, but I am sure there are plenty of "theologians" who would be very happy with your tortured take on things. - Achilles Fri, 18 May 2012 10:40:24 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/united-states-human-rights-abuser.html#comment-11464 Brilliant! I always feel like I just got punched in the stomach when I'm confronted with this much truth all at once! - Jacob Fri, 18 May 2012 10:00:59 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/united-states-human-rights-abuser.html#comment-11463 Dear Naomi: An excellent point, and if TCT had unlimited funds, we'd probably advertise on the Super Bowl and not be wasting a dime! But we're getting out the word, slowly but surely. Thanks for your support. -ABM - Brad Miner Fri, 18 May 2012 09:15:01 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/united-states-human-rights-abuser.html#comment-11462 TCT should be expanded somehow to other widely-read blogspots, websites,etc. Essays like this by Mr. Ruse and so many others must be shared with a larger reading public. Maybe a little sidebar advertising on, let's say, The American Spectator, Real Clear Politics, LifeNews.com, National Catholic Register, EWTN, the Washington Times, The Weekly Standard, Touchstone, Salvi, etc. This is the time to do it...the Holy Spirit is waiting in the wings. - Naomi Fri, 18 May 2012 08:18:29 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/united-states-human-rights-abuser.html#comment-11461 This enormity of this issue has gigantic implications for the US. As a retired military officer - I have been pondering for some years whether the USA, regressing morally under the 'progressive' undertow, is drifting toward the point where a God-fearing man may one day judge that his country is not worthy of laying down one's life. This is a cause for grave concern of American families of God-fearing Catholics, Christians and Jews, and for the citizenry as a whole. The largest portion of officers in the U.S. military since WWII have been Catholic men. Among other things, Catholic and Christian officers have up until now provided a moral bulwark to help keep the U.S. military under moral control. It is already becoming clear that influential factions of the 'governing class' are determined to move the military to the point of saying that a man or woman who professes orthodox Christian morality may be disqualified from serving his country. Then we will have one or two things: an army of 'nationalists' such as the one built by Germany in the 20th century, or something like the Dutch Army, i.e., effectively - defenseless - in a very brutal world. - Chris in Maryland Fri, 18 May 2012 08:17:33 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/united-states-human-rights-abuser.html#comment-11460 Mr. Ellis seems to confuse his categories in a fallen world. He imagines that what is needed is an elite of non-sinners to throw the first stone and govern the rest of us. Short of the Second Coming, we must make do with imperfect (read sinful) individuals in every walk of life. Politicizing morality always brings widespread unhappiness as the historical record clearly shows. Mother Teresa ministered to the poor, the homeless and the friendless; she did not make them rich - a fact with important implications that seem beyond the imagination of those who keep their focus in the material world. What is needed is for the population at large to follow ten easy commandments, but we are all so fallen that we cannot. Thus we have wars and murder and jails and robbery and... - Other Joe Fri, 18 May 2012 08:10:26 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/united-states-human-rights-abuser.html#comment-11459 Very well done. Keep it up. Stay on this road. Don't give up. - Dan Deeny Fri, 18 May 2012 07:45:33 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/united-states-human-rights-abuser.html#comment-11458 Thank you for a fine piece, Mr. Ruse. For over a century and a half, Catholic groups (The Paulists were among the first) claimed that America possessed "exceptionalism" which led to: being an American was more important than being Catholic. Now America is proving beyond any doubt that it is not exceptional, and that being Catholic puts one in opposition to its government. JFK claimed to have written: Profiles in Courage. Does anyone think that book could be written now? What role models in the ecclesial, political or corporate realms could anyone suggest we emulate? Venality reigns supreme. - Manfred Fri, 18 May 2012 07:43:45 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/united-states-human-rights-abuser.html#comment-11457 From Canada I can say our government(and thus each and every taxpayer) is paying for the abortions. Looking at history it is easy to see that every country that sacrificed their children got wiped out eventually. Even when Israel started to sacrifice their children they got wiped out. How can we expect anything different? - Mark Fri, 18 May 2012 06:10:41 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/united-states-human-rights-abuser.html#comment-11455 It is often the case that one's love for something - or, rather, what one believes that thing to be - can tempt him to ignore difficult realities. The United States government has a history of human rights violations: Forced displacement of entire people groups Intentionally exposing unwilling citizens to radioactive and other environmental hazards A history of legal protection for racism and other forms of bigotry Admitted uses of torture We are the only country to ever use nuclear weapons in any capacity - and we chose civilian targets. This is not even to list our nation's longstanding policy of violating the national sovereignty of other countries. I love my home, but I believe my country has a number of unseemly faults. Clearly, conservatives - the same ones you cite as generally being opposed to measures such as investigations of U.S. human rights violations - also believe the United States has unseemly faults. Yet there is a refusal to face the reality of the faults presented by those of a different political persuasion. What is needed is a truly consistent pro-life position: anti-abortion, anti-euthanasia, anti-poverty, anti-death penalty, anti-war, anti-torture, and so forth. Instead, what we have is a fragmented ethic: one group will quite rightly worry about the effects of poverty and malnutrition on human development, or will busy itself opposing the atrocities committed through capital punishment, but doesn't consider abortion a human rights problem at all; another will rally against abortion, but will simultaneously approve of measures like torture and the death penalty. It is not surprising that such fragmented (and sometimes arbitrary) ethical soap boxes only tend to further polarize the political scene. - Scotty Ellis Fri, 18 May 2012 03:44:41 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/united-states-human-rights-abuser.html#comment-11454 Austin, you are surely correct in everything you say. Sadly, for those of us who live in the UK and other western states with nationalised health services, our Governments are doing the killing! Personal convenience is the most powerful god known to too much of mankind and too many bow down before it with closed hearts and minds. The stark contradiction of a wanted baby compared with an unwanted, aborted baby should surely be sufficient for most to see reason? But no, there are no depths to which humanity will not stoop when it is blind to original sin! - Mark Millward Fri, 18 May 2012 03:44:23 +0100