Comments for Knuckleballs, Grace, and the Church at http://www.thecatholicthing.org , comment 1 to 7 out of 7 comments http://www.thecatholicthing.org Sat, 18 May 2013 12:18:18 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/knuckleballs-grace-and-the-church.html#comment-13413 I would go further..Most of the lifelong Catholics who hang out at church like it's a social club have never been part of Catholic living either. (There are converts who experience more "Catholic living" in a day than those others do in their whole lives!) - Jacob R Mon, 17 Sep 2012 03:07:50 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/knuckleballs-grace-and-the-church.html#comment-13405 Based on the responses above, it appears that heaven has a class system just like on earth. Some will get better "rooms" than others. As for me, I don't need a mansion. A small place with a good view would be just fine with me. Thanks, Robert, et al for your responses, though somewhat ambiguous much appreciated. - Grump Sun, 16 Sep 2012 13:34:38 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/knuckleballs-grace-and-the-church.html#comment-13404 @Grump...One possible answer you might consider is realized by the promised salvation of the "obedient, practicing" Jews according to the laws of God's old Testament Covenant juxtaposed to the "disinclined" Jews at the time of Jesus and the founding of His Church. Old Testament Jews were certainly not Catholic, but promised and likely will receive salvation nonetheless; however, Jews who rejected Jesus teachings and the Good News were neither Catholic nor offered any alternative salvation opportunity. Therefore, it is not correct to assume nor does it logically follow that non-Catholics are not offered salvation, but rather to conclude that when one becomes aware of The Church yet repudiates or declines Its teachings [they] will not be offered a separate path to or unique mechanism for salvation. True, they are non-Catholic but non-Catholic by choice. The operating theology at play here is about faith, acceptance, knowledge, wisdom, understanding, and attendant graces of the Holy Spirit. Like the earlier Jews, the danger of losing salvation is not in being non-Catholic (for there are many such good souls) but rather sinning against the Gifts of the Holy Spirit. Theologically more significant, is to contemplate: why; the only plausible answer for one to unilaterally reject the Holy Spirit is for one to be held captive by grievous sin, e.g., pride or material avarice, and hence unworthy if not reconciled. Jesus' promise or covenant for salvation is through Him with the graces and sacraments of His Church. You are likely familiar with the numerous biblical citations, so no need to list them. Invariably and in support of the aforementioned theological premise of sin blinding the soul, Christian converts to the Catholic faith refer to and give credit to the Holy Spirit for their conversion experience. Far fewer converts credit their own reasoning (see Dante). That said, St. Therese of Avila describes Heaven in a vision as a diamond-like castle with many rooms, some rooms closer to God, others further. Like a ballpark, one might interpret her vision as portending second rate accommodations, as you suggest in your query. Perhaps the best choice for us all is to ask the Holy Spirit to show us the way to box seating. - Ernest Miller Sun, 16 Sep 2012 12:31:01 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/knuckleballs-grace-and-the-church.html#comment-13403 Grump: The Church has never said, even in ancient times, that only visible members of the Church will be saved. The "virtuous pagans" might make it if circumstances warranted. But what the Church has insisted on is that the Church is the mystical body of Christ and the way God intends for us to reach salvation. You can maybe get by outside, but you're taking a chance not because some pope says so, but because God says so. - Robert Royal Sun, 16 Sep 2012 11:47:28 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/knuckleballs-grace-and-the-church.html#comment-13401 To Grump, Many Non" Catholics will see the face of our Lord despite what some may feel, it is not a one size fits all world. - Jack,CT Sun, 16 Sep 2012 05:21:49 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/knuckleballs-grace-and-the-church.html#comment-13400 So there is no salvation unless you're a Catholic? Please explain why someone who "accepts" Christ and is baptized by a non-Catholic Church will not receive "the fullness of grace?" Does this portend second-rate accommodations in heaven if a non-Catholic even has the hope of getting there? No sarcasm intended. - Grump Sun, 16 Sep 2012 03:41:11 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/knuckleballs-grace-and-the-church.html#comment-13399 As Cardinal Henri de Lubac said of the centrality of the Church, "the church is not instrumental to God’s purpose of redeeming the world, rather the world is instrumental to God’s purpose of fashioning a body and bride for his Son." - Michael Paterson-Seymour Sun, 16 Sep 2012 00:45:57 +0100