Comments for Vatican II: The Yes and the No at http://www.thecatholicthing.org , comment 1 to 46 out of 20 comments http://www.thecatholicthing.org Wed, 19 Jun 2013 05:24:21 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/vatican-ii-the-yes-and-the-no.html#comment-15796 Vatican II said this in it's Constitution Dei Verbum: "Consequently it is not from Sacred Scripture alone that the Church draws her certainty about everything which has been revealed. Therefore both sacred tradition and Sacred Scripture are to be accepted and venerated with the same sense of loyalty and reverence." Vatican II showed that traditions should be kept with loyalty. - HJoanJ Tue, 12 Feb 2013 09:09:45 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/vatican-ii-the-yes-and-the-no.html#comment-15735 Vatican II's Constitution on the Church says this in chapter three: "Although the individual bishops do not enjoy the prerogative of infallibility, they nevertheless proclaim Christ's doctrine infallibly whenever, even though dispersed through the world, but still maintaining the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter, and authentically teaching matters of faith and morals, they are in agreement on one position as definitively to be held. This is even more clearly verified when, gathered together in an ecumenical council, they are teachers and judges of faith and morals for the universal Church, whose definitions must be adhered to with the submission of faith." The 20 ecumenical councils before it are still infallible, like the ecumenical council of Trent that declared that Catholics with faith can lose salvation from unrepented mortal (grave) sin. And that baptism or the implicit desire of baptism is necessary for salvation. And Jesus is physically the consecrated bread wafers we receive at mass. - HJoan Fri, 08 Feb 2013 13:22:28 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/vatican-ii-the-yes-and-the-no.html#comment-13942 Dear Bob Rowland, Your post moved me. However, even though you espouse a return to the Council of Tent, might I suggest that your suggestion is a by product of modernism? We in these times have been inundated by scientism and materialism. We have been duped into seeing things upside down. Luckaks makes reference to that “pestilential habit of false attribution” that is a hallmark of our times. There can be arguments made that Vatican Council II is infected, but they are mostly of the empirical kind, word count, observable perversions from bad theologians, vagueness etc…… But really my brother in Christ do you attribute these dark times in the Church to Vatican Council II? If we strive for a little more panoptic view, the notion is absurd. How about a glance at the renaissance leading into the failed enlightenment experiment? How about Bacon’s inductive method being applied to humans by every modern philosopher? How about Pope Leo XIII’s vision of that conversation between satan and God? How about the sexual revolution? Isn’t the Spiritual Combat interior in its entirety? Isn’t the only thing we have any control over all in this our own hearts? God won’t change, satan won’t change, fallen human nature won’t change. God wants our broken hearts. Don’t despair, believe. God is not looking at the horrible guitar masses and turning His back on those who truly love Him, he is not judging the flock by heretic priests, we only have to turn our hearts and minds over to the Will of God. Have faith Bob that the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church. It sends shivers down my spine to hear and see good devoutly intention mature men second guess the Holy Spirit. The Council is valid, good true and beautiful. The times are infested with demons and commanded by the dark one himself, pray for faith and please pray for me too. Peace to all men of good will, Achilles - Achilles Thu, 18 Oct 2012 03:33:26 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/vatican-ii-the-yes-and-the-no.html#comment-13930 Dear Alecto, Good advice. Throw in a little Debussy and all will be well. Dear Mr. Foley, My condolences on the death of your wife. Seventy is much too young. Having lived a holy life, she must surely be in the nearer presence of God, which can only give you profound comfort. My husband and I had known only the Novus Ordo since our conversion in 1971 and reconversion in 2002 after 20 years in the wilderness, and I have no doubt that we would still be content with that Mass if we had never experienced any other. Since 2002, we have been almost daily communicants. We had a 25 minute drive to Mass for the fist 3 years but then we changed parishes and added 15 minutes to the drive, but it was worth it. We experienced our first Latin Mass two or three years ago. On the way home, my husband and I shared our thoughts. They were identical. My generally taciturn chemist husband said, "I don't know what happened up there [on the altar], but SOMETHING did." It was a something that we had never experienced before. It took both of us by surprise. I have no doubt that a person can become a devoted, holy Catholic with the N.O. and I do not say that the TLM is the only way to attain holiness or heaven. I apologize for having left that impression. I can only tell you what we experienced and compare that to the challenges that the loosely structured N.O. Mass presents. There seems to be no limit to the novelties that various priests and liturgist are willing and able to introduce, and they do not hesitate to do so. You just never know what a Sunday morning in a different parish will bring. My daughter told me of a priest of a large, inner-city parish who was disturbed that he could not integrate all the various ethnic groups for which he had to offer a different translation of the Mass. "What can I do to bring them together," he lamented. Well, how about the Latin Mass? What could be easier? Thank you for writing and telling me about your lovely wife. How good God is to assure us that we will meet again. - Maggie Louise Wed, 17 Oct 2012 15:39:52 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/vatican-ii-the-yes-and-the-no.html#comment-13928 Cardinal de Lubac himself repeatedly argued that Humani Generis in no way impugned his own arguments, and it is hard to imagine anyone more committed to the retrieval of the riches of Aquinas than de Lubac. In fact much that was called 'Scholasticism' was as much Kant as Aquinas. - Bill M. Wed, 17 Oct 2012 11:29:47 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/vatican-ii-the-yes-and-the-no.html#comment-13927 To Maggie Louise. My wife died in May 2009 at the age of 70. She was the most Christ-like person that I have ever known. She was a daily communicant since her first Holy Communion, and she lived it. A young Jewish friend of ours told her mother that she loved her as only a daughter could but that even she was not like my wife. I could give you other testimonies of my wife's Christian selflessness. My point here is that she attended the ordinary form of the Mass since its inception, and it was not an obstacle to her growth in holiness. In fact, the Holy Sacrifice was a key to her spiritual development. If you prefer the extraordinary form of the Mass, that is fine; however, please do not make negative remarks about the Holy Sacrifice in the ordinary form. It is, whether in the vernacular or in Latin, the renewal of the Sacrifice of Calvary - Bill Foley Wed, 17 Oct 2012 11:00:41 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/vatican-ii-the-yes-and-the-no.html#comment-13925 Henri de Lubac's New Theology was recognized as resurgent modernism and was denounced as "fslse opinions" by Pope Pius XII in Humani Generis. Yet it became the foundation of the aggiornamento of the Second Vatican Council. Popes have continually taught that the philosophy and theology of St. Thomas Aquinas (Scholasticism) is the irreplaceable basis for Catholic teaching – the remedy for the modernism that seems to have invaded the Church through VCII. I will go to the grave believing the Second Vatican Council was the greatest tragedy in my 85 years for one reason– Belief in the Real Presence has plummeted from almost 100 percent to an unconscionable 25 percent. I thought Communion in the hand was the guilty party, but now I have come to realize that it was the natural result of the rejection of Scholasticism of St. Thomas Aquinas. How in the world will we ever regain full belief in the preeminent doctrine of our faith. No wonder I have thoght and commented on occasion for 50 years that modernism was alive and well in the documents of the Second Vatican. There may be hope now that substantiation has returned. I hope I am beginning to understand what drives Pope Benedict XVI to try to overcome excesses of VCII. Renewal would be complete if we could revive the infallible doctrines of the Council of Trent. God help us. - Bob Rowland Wed, 17 Oct 2012 10:43:30 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/vatican-ii-the-yes-and-the-no.html#comment-13924 @Maggie Louise, there's a cure for post-mass tinnitus, it's called Beethoven, Schubert, and Mozart. They all wrote music for masses which I only hear on WETA's Vivalavoce! If that isn't irony, what is? - Alecto Wed, 17 Oct 2012 10:30:11 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/vatican-ii-the-yes-and-the-no.html#comment-13923 Dear Louise, Given the choice between your cross and mine, I'll take mine in a heartbeat. Guitars are just more than a soul should have to bear. We have a fine, fine pastor, and he works very hard. He takes his day off once a week, but not until after he has celebrated morning Mass. We have 40-hour devotions every year. Midnight Mass is at midnight. Confessions are heard before every (yes, every) Mass, every day except Christmas Day and Easter. He is in the church every day at 3:00 praying his breviary. There are no altar girls, nor women as Extraordinary Ministers of the Eucharist. Nobody give the homily except him or a visiting priest. He is a dear and holy man, and handles all the problems of many constituencies in the parish. And he did open his heart and his parish to the FSSP for four days last summer, which, strangely enough, was the start of all my problems--but I don't want to add to his. Sounds as if I have nothing to complain about, doesn't it. And maybe I don't. Although a little silence would be so nice, Solomon I'm not. Templar is right. It is only the experience of God in the TLM--the experience of heaven on earth--that will save the Church, I think. - Maggie Louise Wed, 17 Oct 2012 10:21:42 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/vatican-ii-the-yes-and-the-no.html#comment-13920 @Maggie Louise, fellow woman warrior, I am glad that we have hit on the same solution; it is a gift from God no doubt. Have you ever discussed it with your pastor? The rubrics promote periods of silence and that is one of the things that was emphasized with the new changes. I'm not suggesting that we can't try to improve things but it is a delicate thing and it takes the wisdom of Solomon to figure out the best approach. I just did an online search for "silence in the liturgy" and found some excellent resources. In my case it is more retro=we still have "all guitars all the time" and that soppy music that Alecto references. - Louise Wed, 17 Oct 2012 06:58:44 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/vatican-ii-the-yes-and-the-no.html#comment-13915 @Brad Miner: The liturgical restoration you refer to, is part of a larger plan to combine the Traditional Latin Mass, with the Novus Ordo, into a common rite. As a practical matter, most Bishops are hostile to the idea of a return to tradition. The vast majority of Catholics have not experienced the silence, the reverence and the transcendence of a TLM. The current spiritual crisis needs a spiritual cure, Catholics worldwide praying the rosary daily while getting acquainted with the "Apostolic" faith, by attending a Traditional Latin Mass. - Templar Wed, 17 Oct 2012 02:05:23 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/vatican-ii-the-yes-and-the-no.html#comment-13913 Dear Louise, We do have the same reaction when disturbed by something in the liturgy. Under the constant barrage of loud hymns or interludes of organ vibrations, my thought often turn to the Passion of our Lord and try to walk with Him. I think that, one of the most difficult things to endure from the moment of His arrest until He bowed His head in death must have been the constant noise of the crowds and the chaos, the comings and goings, the helplessness in the midst of constant confusion and motion, the chatter, the shouting, the noise, noise, noise, when He was a man who spent so much time in the quiet of the desert, on the mountainside, in silence and in prayer. I'm sure that the enemy created as much chaos around Him as he could gather, because chaos is his milieux. Also, how did our Lord know that the disciples were not praying while He suffered His agony in the garden? Obviously, they must have been making noise, some snoring in sleep, some in boisterous laughter and conversation. Noise, noise, noise. So, I do exactly as you describe. The question is, should every Mass be a penance without a moment for silent worship? Are worship and penance the same thing? Maybe they are. I sometimes approach the church door thinking exactly that, knowing that, when I exit that door, my ears will be ringing, my nerves will be vibrating with the tremolo of the base notes of the organ, and my head will be aching. It's not that the music is bad--it is actually very good, it is that it fills every last moment that is not otherwise taken up by priest, lectors, peace signs, etc. Every thing about the Mass is very good, as good as the N.O. allows. Sometimes, I just sit there and stare up at the high altar and, in my mind's eye, see the priest, hands raised, ad orientem, and pretend. - Maggie Louise Tue, 16 Oct 2012 19:49:20 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/vatican-ii-the-yes-and-the-no.html#comment-13912 @Alecto, thank you, but i'm not trying to humble you only encourage you and the others who are discouraged by the persistent problems...I hope it helps. I've never been tempted not to assist at Mass; I assume i am not up to the temptation and thus God has spared me from it! - Louise Tue, 16 Oct 2012 19:33:26 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/vatican-ii-the-yes-and-the-no.html#comment-13909 @Templar: I wonder . . . would you acknowledge that Benedict XVI has already restored the "ancient liturgy"? In most seminaries now, students are once again studying Latin, and there is no barrier to saying the Tridentine Mass anywhere. But it was also Cdl. Ratzinger who wrote that it was necessary for the "wall of Latinity" to fall. Of course, he never meant to suggest that Latin shouldn't be a option, but he knew that understanding of and participation by the laity in the Mass is essential. He is engaged (and has been since becoming pope) in the reform of the reform. That there was a revolution is beyond dispute, but that revolution is being made null. Now we have true reform. As Chesterton wrote (and I paraphrase): Reform implies form. Reasonable and determined men know that form: a thing is out of shape and we mean to put it back in shape. And we know the shape. - Brad Miner Tue, 16 Oct 2012 15:43:22 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/vatican-ii-the-yes-and-the-no.html#comment-13908 The French Revolution was the direct result of the French Kings' rejection of the alliance proposed to them by the Sacred Heart of Jesus, made to them one hundred years earlier. Vatican II was also a revolution and was the direct result of the Papal Monarch's refusal of the proposal made to them at Fatima by Our Lady of the Rosary. "God wishes to establish in the world, devotion to My Immaculate Heart." With these words, Our Lady of the Rosary gave the Popes a choice, "If what I say to you is done there will be peace. If not..." We have experienced the "if not" since 1965. It's all there is St Paul's second letter to the Thessalonians, chapter 2. The rebellion, the chastisement from God, "He who restrains is taken away" (The Holy Ghost) and the remedy, "Therefore stand fast and hold to tradition." The Year of Faith is doomed to failure, unless the Holy Father decides to totally reverse the course the Church has taken since 1965 by restoring the ancient liturgy and establishing devotion to the Immaculate Heart of Mary throughout the world. - Templar Tue, 16 Oct 2012 15:24:06 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/vatican-ii-the-yes-and-the-no.html#comment-13907 @Louise, you humble me. Of course yours is the appropriate response, thank you for showing me the way. - Alecto Tue, 16 Oct 2012 14:44:51 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/vatican-ii-the-yes-and-the-no.html#comment-13906 Whenever i am disturbed by things that seem awry in the Sacred Liturgy such as non liturgical music, etc...I have a little way of coping. I picture what the Crucifixion must have been like - the gambling beneath the Cross, the curses, the blaspheming, and I offer what is currently disturbing me as reparation. Truly God deserves better but until we get it we can continue to acccompany Him in the poverty of the surroundings. True, sometimes the Mass today is the re-presentation of the Saving Mysteries in a distressing disguise, but even in that distressing disguise it is still more precious than anything in this world! - Louise Tue, 16 Oct 2012 13:48:38 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/vatican-ii-the-yes-and-the-no.html#comment-13905 One more thought about Vatican II. Could the music be any worse? I am ashamed to admit that sometimes I just can't take any more of, "Jesus, yeah, he loves me, yeah, lifting me up on eagle's wings and raising me up, blah, blah, blah," and I have to leave. Don't we all belong to the one institution that has the richest musical tradition in the world? Wouldn't silence be more appropriate than the fifth-rate beginning guitar chorus? The words the happy say Are paltry melody But those the silent feel Are beautiful - Ah, Emily, the wondrous beauty of silence is golden. - Alecto Tue, 16 Oct 2012 13:12:21 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/vatican-ii-the-yes-and-the-no.html#comment-13904 I happened to hear Hugh Hewitt's address at the Napa Institute. To be in the world, but not of it, should be the focus of every Catholic. It feels new to hear this as well as how to achieve that (no small feat). At the same Napa Institute conference, Cardinal Chaput stated that this is not our home, something we know but don't hear very often. Why was it necessary to disown 2000 years of tradition to bow down to a world that is nothing more than an illusion? Why the need through Vatican II to make Catholics more comfortable in it, then? So much of modern Catholicism is so gentle, so soft, like pudding, that it makes excuses for us when it should be reminding us to repent, and prepare ourselves for our real home with God. - Alecto Tue, 16 Oct 2012 12:50:35 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/vatican-ii-the-yes-and-the-no.html#comment-13896 Dear DS, Thank you for your explanation. I assumed all that you said. Our parish has an excellent religious education program--probably the best one around, and most of the instructors are young and well catechized. But we are a small parish in an out-of-the-way rural area. I realize that that doesn't limit the extent to which their influence can extend, but, even so . . . In an obscure region of a deep blue state, there is only so much that a person can do. It was a lot easier for St. Paul to take up the subject of the "Unknown God" to a religious people than to try to preach to a society whose response is "Been there, done that." In my years as a Catholic, I have relied exclusively on the excellent reading material that is being published these days--especially the old stuff. I don't attend any adult religious ed. class for which the instructor has no credentials or the authority to say to someone, "You are mistaken." Previous experiences proved that they were mostly "pooling ignorance" sessions. At almost 80, I will continue to rely on the printed word (Fr. Schall, for example, and others like him. I love Belloc, and one J. Ratzinger is my favorite) as long as the eyesight holds out. Speaking of J. Ratzinger, I heard an FSSP priest quote from his book "Feast of Faith" about the profound and spiritually beneficial effects of silence in the Mass--one of my favorite themes. It is next on my list. But first, I will try to get through "The Brothers Karamozof" because it is time for some fiction. Even there I found the best description of modern society given by The Grand Inquisitor. And he was right on target talking about many Catholics: 'Men do not so much seek God as they seek miracles." I have found this to be true. Most Catholics I have known can go on at length about miracles but don't have much to say about the Faith. Reading Scripture, I don't find the Apostles preaching about miracles as much as they preach about God and His Son. That should be our model. - Maggie Louise Mon, 15 Oct 2012 18:56:29 +0100