Comments for Another Election – and Another People? at http://www.thecatholicthing.org , comment 1 to 31 out of 20 comments http://www.thecatholicthing.org Wed, 22 May 2013 14:28:31 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/another-election-and-another-people.html#comment-14104 Thanks very much, Louise. And I look forward to the next time. - Mr. Levy Mon, 29 Oct 2012 07:21:58 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/another-election-and-another-people.html#comment-14078 Mr. Levy, I don't want you to think I was ignoring your kind post but I wasn't sure how to use that most precious gift called the "last word"! All I can say is please reread this article and consider carefully the power of your vote and its ability to affect our country at this most important time. It's much easier to preserve than to rebuild. And as this article points out, those who know how to rebuild are becoming scarce. I have no crystal ball. I share your frustrations. Sometimes it seems that all we can do is keep our finger in the dike. We get the cadidate that majority of voters select...that's the reality we have to deal with. All that being said, surely we will meet again in a future comments section! - Louise Sat, 27 Oct 2012 06:59:36 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/another-election-and-another-people.html#comment-14077 Interesting 'coincidence' that S.Spiegelberg's LINCOLN movie is set to premier the FRI after election day.....Are the rest of us uniformed about something?.....As those professional/master social manipulators of Hollywood do nothing---from 'please pass the butter' on up---without some other Machiavellian reason.....Talk about a huge amount of power within the hands of an unelected few (i.e. elites)....We can only hope that the portrayal does justice to President Abe Lincoln's memory!.....peace/jmch. - James Sat, 27 Oct 2012 04:35:18 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/another-election-and-another-people.html#comment-14049 Louise, I do appreciate your responses, however, and please have the last word. I will check again later to see what you have written, if you choose to reply. And, sincerely, I hope very much that you are right. - Mr. Levy Wed, 24 Oct 2012 09:19:01 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/another-election-and-another-people.html#comment-14048 Louise, it seems that you want to avoid serious consideration of our political history (earlier than 2008, anyway). I cannot force you to do it, but I refer you again to the questions I asked above, which are grounded in historical fact, not present fancy. Since you have raised the question of the 2008 election (which is entirely appropriate, I hasten to add) consider this. Conservatives were terribly demoralized after eight years of the progressive Bush II, which was one of the several biggest reasons that McCain lost, but now you want us to embrace a candidate who is even more progressive. I am not sure what different result you hope for this time after Romney's time in office. And supposing that Romney serves two terms, as did Bush II, how will conservatives be any better positioned to defeat the next Obama in 2020? - Mr. Levy Wed, 24 Oct 2012 08:37:09 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/another-election-and-another-people.html#comment-14046 Mr. Levy, I say this respectfully but your post is full of coulda, shoulda, woulda, that is not backed up by the present reality. Consider that in the last election our country pretty much did what you are suggesting we do this time--we passed over a somewhat liberal Repub in favor of a ubber-liberal Dem. Did that get us a more conservative Repub this time? What your analysis is missing is the moral deteriororation of the voting populace which is the subject of the article on which we are reflecting. The Dems mostly seem stuck on passing immoral laws which contribute to the moral deterioration, since law is instructive. so waiting it out only seems to make it more and more difficult to get that candidate you want, not more likely. - Louise Wed, 24 Oct 2012 07:53:49 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/another-election-and-another-people.html#comment-14045 Prof. Arkes: Thank you for the deeply insightful instruction on the Constitution, particularly that it followed rather than preceded the Union. Thank you also for the other comments. I share Louise's appreciation for your unassuming entry into the forum, from which I often learn just as much as from your articles. - Mr. Levy Wed, 24 Oct 2012 06:24:15 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/another-election-and-another-people.html#comment-14044 Louise, I'm not recommending "sending a message" to anyone, but simply not supporting progressive candidates like Romney. Sometimes it is better that the GOP lose a presidential election in order to have a better GOP presidency four years later. Looking back, was it better for Bush I to win in 1988? We could have had a better candidate in 1992 who would have governed for eight years and done more conservative things. Looking back, was it better for Bush II to win in 2000? Again, four years of Gore followed by a more conservative GOP candidate in 2004 could have helped the country more. It is not utopian to think that the GOP could have nominated someone more conservative than a "compassionate conservative" (i.e., a progressive). I am fully aware of the damage that Democratic presidents can do (e.g., opening the door to Revolutionary Iran in 1979), but I am also aware of the damage that progressive Republicans do when they concede ground to the left either expressly or by default. What has been the result of Nixon's, Bush I's, and Bush II's continued expansion of government? And how did their Supreme Court nominees turn out overall? Was it good or bad that Bush II led the party to expand Medicare? Where did his over-spending get us? Let's go back a little further. Was it better for the country for Ike to win in 1952? He wasn't even a registered Republican before running for the presidency. Among other grievous mistakes he made, he accepted FDR's domestic program and nominated awful justices (e.g., Warren, Brennan). Might it have been better to put up a more conservative candidate in 1956 after four years of Stevenson? It is difficult to say, but, again, history suggests that it may be better sometimes for the GOP to lose a presidential election. There is nothing utopian about my position. It is based on the hard facts of the last sixty years of presidential politics. You can argue that this election is somehow different from every previous election. But it's hardly clear to me that more is at stake in this election than in earlier elections, which led to GOP acceptance of the New Deal, the Great Society, and so on. Indeed, it is exactly because of those previous elections that we have arrived where we are now. And it is far from clear that electing a progressive Republican - yet again - is the way to save ourselves. (Please note that I have said "more conservative," not "perfectly conservative." I object to voting for progressives, not moderate conservatives.) - Mr. Levy Wed, 24 Oct 2012 06:17:13 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/another-election-and-another-people.html#comment-14043 Mr.Arkes has hit the REAL nerve center of this coming election: and to me that is the necessity of cleansing the White House of a VILE and DESPICABLE person (who may sit in the presidency through chicanery and deception)by responsibly exercising the voting right which willl enable that outcome. The PROBLEM for me is the SCARY CHARACTER of too many exercising that voting right.They seem more and more like a "mob", especially the Democratic party "FAITHFUL." If one will read last year's book by Ann Coulter, "DEMONIC," IT SHOULD BE VERY APPARENT WHERE THIS NATION MAY BE HEADED. And because of that crisis which she, among many others, have alluded to, it MAY be already too late. I pray not. GOD BLESS ALL, MARKRITE - markrite Wed, 24 Oct 2012 05:29:30 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/another-election-and-another-people.html#comment-14042 My dear Mr. Levy, if your strategy is to wait this out and send a message, to whom are you sending that signal? The Republican body politic is not a sentient being with a long memory...it is mostly a rapidly changing demographic. There is no central brain to think about your nonvote and change because of it; there is just a new set of voters with their own perspective. Indeed, politically,we only have the present moment in which to act and attempt to accomplish in that moment the most good that can be achieved with the particular set of circumstances presented to us. I share all your frustrations with the Republican modes operandi but what i have come to realize is that parties are made of people and you could found a whole new party with founding principles just as you like them and they could be changed by the next election! It's simply human nature we are dealing with and we are always going to be facing the imperfect situation. I hope you will reconsider. Your vote has never been more important. Hadley, I hope you will continue to comment on comments as is your wont because that is what makes TCT so wonderful...having stellar personalities such as yourself mixing it up with the rest of us; it's so very Catholic. - Louise Wed, 24 Oct 2012 05:17:57 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/another-election-and-another-people.html#comment-14041 It's ironic the good Bishop quotes Lincoln on slavery, given that the Catholic Bishops of the time told Catholics they were not bound by the Emancipation Proclamation to free their slaves. Catholic leaders seem to be reluctant to address the limits of their position. If a Catholic employer can impose his views on employees, can a fundamentalist Muslim employer do the same? Why not? If this holds, we'll have a hodgepodge of 'moral issues'. A secular employer who pays for only 1 child's healthcare, for example. Are Catholics ready to support that? The only logical position is that we are all equal before the law. - bpuharic Wed, 24 Oct 2012 04:57:11 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/another-election-and-another-people.html#comment-14038 I believe Romney will appoint prolife justices to the court if he can. A woman has come forward and accused Romney of trying to to talk her out of an abortion when he was pastor even though she was ill. As for the debates, he was trying to persuade independents of swing states...and all the moderators are known liberals. The best is the enemy of the good and to stop government funding of Planned Parenthhood is a good...please vote and get every despairing conservative to vote too. As Fr Neuhaus used to say, "we can still turn this around!" - Austin Sims Wed, 24 Oct 2012 00:56:05 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/another-election-and-another-people.html#comment-14031 "And the haunting question is: when did we cease being that people?" We ceased being that people when the love for "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" became more important than the love for God. All sin is idolatry --- whether it is the love for animals and/or things (paganism), the love for humans (humanism), or the love for self (narcissism). Only one love is psychologically healthy and that is the LOVE for the TRUTH (which is God.) When one loves the TRUTH, one cannot (will not) escape God. When one truly loves God, love for one's self and others follow. It is only when one truly loves GOD FIRST can one put one's love for anything else in its proper place --- whether it's love for living things, love for individual freedom or love for country. This is the good news! This is the same problem! It comes with every generation. We know the answer and the solution! PRAY and teach the people you love how to pray. Pray to God that He will protect you from yourself. Pray to God that He will protect those you love from themselves. And always give THANKS for the time you were given here on earth to pray for yourself and others. Trust that God (who endures as always) will give you (and others) the COURAGE to enter peaceably into HIS joy. - Facile1 Tue, 23 Oct 2012 19:21:15 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/another-election-and-another-people.html#comment-14030 I've been tied up all day in teaching and then hosting a speaker at Amherst, and so I'm catching up late with all of the comments. It may not be wise for us to comment on the comments, as I've been drawn at different times to do. But I must say that I've been deeply touched by the currents of soul springing from these comments today. I share almost all of the sentiments expressed in this gathering of letters. But I'd post a warning about making light of our choices: A President should be more than an Elector for the Supreme Court but if Mr, Obama gets one or two more appointments, that is the end for the issue of marriage. People may speculate as to whether Mr Romney will disappoint us. I don't think he will; but in the case of Obama there is no trace of doubt that the appointments to the Court would be a disaster for us and the things of moral consequence we care about. I'm so pleased to hear the voices of Manfred and Grump and Louse and Debby and the friends reassembled here. Manfred picks out 1968 as a critical turning point, and there is no doubt about the turbulence and violence of that year. I lived through the disruptions of the campus at Amherst in 1969 and 1970, but I'd arrived here in 1966, and it was all very much in the air at the time. It was clear to me that I was already part of a different generation, even though I was still in my mid-20's. I was anchored, evidently, in a world now vanishing. I would make the plea to Debby not to make the Constitution the lodestar. As Lincoln reminded us, the Union is older than the Constitution, More important are the moral principles that gave rise to the Constitution. Lincoln drew on Proverbs: a word fitly spoken is like an apple of gold in a frame of silver. The frame was made for the apple, not the apple for the frame. The Constitution was made for the Union, not the Union for the Constitution. It's curious that people on the Left who deny moral truths will treat the Constitution as though it were an absolute truth, the central moral truth in their lives. I think we have to be careful not to make the Constitution an idol in that respect. The task may be to cultivate a political class more like the Founders in the sense that the members understand the principles that were there before the Constitution--the principles that would be there even if the Constitution weren't there. But then the anchoring point of satisfaction for us: that the Church has become, in our time, the main sanctuary for preserving that moral reasoning of the Natural Law, the reasoning understood by the Founders, even as the currents of relativism have been eroding all other institutions. And so let's be grateful for that family we see gathered around these columns in the Catholic Thing, this coming together of writers and their friends, for they form the body of the Church. Thank you all for writing, and God bless. - Hadley Arkes Tue, 23 Oct 2012 18:52:41 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/another-election-and-another-people.html#comment-14029 Dear Prof. Arkes, I have a question to pose to your ending question - When did politicians stop defending, promoting, endorsing, espousing, believing in THE CONSTITUTION? As a prof of that document, do you think the two questions are related? And Matt and Fergetes are spot on - why do we always buy into the mass depression as if WE DID NOT HOLD OUT ANY HOPE FOR THEM? i mean really, how can our Faith face the darkness of our world if it is not Armed in Truth, Pulsating with Hope, Willing to Die for the Sake of the Name Above All Names? i mean, how can any Catholic who receives His Graces act just like the rest of the world? This is not the time for hand-wringing and down-cast countenances! This is the time to be excited to be the one who has the very medicine to cure the sick and dying around us. Come on, guys. Let's do this better. HOPE IN GOD. BE IN GOD. HE IS THE VICTOR! AND WE ARE HIS! - debby Tue, 23 Oct 2012 15:29:51 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/another-election-and-another-people.html#comment-14027 @Matt Dear Matt,You really broke it down to what really matters,"pray",you are so correct Prayer is really the true answer to all this banter. Jack - Jack,CT Tue, 23 Oct 2012 14:37:07 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/another-election-and-another-people.html#comment-14025 I think the thing to keep in mind is that this is not primarily about politics or parties, but, rather, a steep decline in our culture and morals. In short: It's us. Our leaders, in a democratic society, reflect our collective values... and those have become disconnected from the source of Truth. We cannot look to a politician or a party for our collective salvation. We should instead pray, pray, pray for God to touch the hearts of His people before we get ourselves into a world of hurt. - Matt Tue, 23 Oct 2012 14:00:01 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/another-election-and-another-people.html#comment-14024 I am not surprised at Louise's response, but it is hardly utopian to ask for a candidate better than a progressive who happens to understand economics. Otherwise, we are saying that it is enough for a candidate to slow down the left's advance without stopping it (much less reversing it). If you want more Souters and O'Connors on the Court, if you want marriage to go undefended, if you want to concede that the federal government's power to regulate is by and large unlimited, vote for Romney. The damage to our liberty has not come mainly from the Democratic Party, but from the unwillingness of the Republican Party to fight against the Democratic Party. Ike accepted FDR's programs; Nixon accepted the Great Society (and added programs of his own); Bush I and Bush II accepted the liberal program, too, and expanded upon them. Now here we are, with Obama as president and on the verge of a second term. How did we get here? Through the GOP's repeated concessions to the left. It's painful to admit. But we won't help our cause by voting for yet another GOP candidate who is nothing more than a less extreme Democrat, and who either won't oppose the left or actually agrees with the left (except when it comes to balancing the budget). - Mr. Levy Tue, 23 Oct 2012 11:18:20 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/another-election-and-another-people.html#comment-14023 "There once was a time... and we ceased being that people." It is all too sad. I would love to see Prof. Arkes and Fr. Schall write about the role of faithful Catholics/Christians in post-Christian societies. - Just a mom Tue, 23 Oct 2012 10:12:26 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/another-election-and-another-people.html#comment-14022 In reading the column and comments, I am reminded of Blessed John XXIII's remarks at the opening of Vatican II. (I believe that I first read this quote on these pages from someone else commenting on a previous column.) "....We hear certain opinions which disturb Us—opinions expressed by people who, though fired with a commendable zeal for religion, are lacking in sufficient prudence and judgment in their evaluation of events. They can see nothing but calamity and disaster in the present state of the world. They say over and over that this modern age of ours, in comparison with past ages, is definitely deteriorating. One would think from their attitude that history, that great teacher of life, had taught them nothing. They seem to imagine that in the days of the earlier councils everything was as it should be so far as doctrine and morality and the Church's rightful liberty were concerned." - Fergetes Tue, 23 Oct 2012 10:07:42 +0100