Comments for The French Debate on Gay Marriage at http://www.thecatholicthing.org , comment 1 to 22 out of 20 comments http://www.thecatholicthing.org Wed, 19 Jun 2013 09:26:47 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-french-debate-on-gay-marriage.html#comment-14714 I’ve had the most luck making same-sex marriage proponents think-twice when using only secular logic. Questions like: Why is the government in the marriage business? Does the government care who you “love”? Would marriage exist if humans reproduced asexually? The rational (secular) basis of marriage is procreation, not romantic love. They will ask; what about infertile couples or couples who do not want children? This question brings a new debate. The debate becomes, should marriage be defined as any man and any woman or only a man and woman willing & able to have children. The question in no way logically justifies same-sex marriage. - Ben Tue, 04 Dec 2012 06:17:04 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-french-debate-on-gay-marriage.html#comment-14696 Jack, don't blow off the Communion of Saints... - Louise Mon, 03 Dec 2012 16:09:36 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-french-debate-on-gay-marriage.html#comment-14693 Jean, perceptive article; thanks for writing. - kristinajohannes Mon, 03 Dec 2012 15:30:31 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-french-debate-on-gay-marriage.html#comment-14689 Dear Augustine: Thanks for the reminder but I will deal with issues in regards to my soul with the Lord. Jack - Jack,CT Mon, 03 Dec 2012 14:42:42 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-french-debate-on-gay-marriage.html#comment-14686 This is a quote from Jack CT's above post. "I suspect I am in the minority but Let gays Marry! ......... I do not exspect alot of positive feedback,but I stand for equality for all." Jack, clearly you wieghed in on this with your support going to gay marriage. Louise had it right in the first place. Going against Church Doctrine is a very dangerous thing to do if one wants to be a "devote" Catholic. "Repent, make the way straight for the Lord." Don't wait for "biology" to weigh in on this, take Christ at his word, anything else is foolish hubris. - Augustine Mon, 03 Dec 2012 13:34:28 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-french-debate-on-gay-marriage.html#comment-14684 @Louise/ND I do not recall giving an opinion on Gay marriage? you can run around in circles tryin to find it....not there! I support,(since you spoke for me i will clear it up)Marriage only between a man and a FEMALE.clear? Jack - Jack,CT Mon, 03 Dec 2012 12:29:45 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-french-debate-on-gay-marriage.html#comment-14668 N.D., agreed. I'm merely pointing out that there is an extra layer of certitude for Catholics in Church teaching that confirms the natural law. It's crazy that we are even debating the obvious. It shows the power of...well I'm not exactly sure what it is showing the power of! - Louise Mon, 03 Dec 2012 06:05:58 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-french-debate-on-gay-marriage.html#comment-14660 It is a self-evident truth that only a man and woman can exist in relationship as husband and wife. Marriage, by its very essence, is restrictive, to begin with. The fact that a father and daughter, mother and son, brother and sister, children, two men, two women, one man and two women, one woman and two men, cannot exist in relationship as husband and wife and thus cannot be married to each other, is not unjust discrimination. - N.D. Mon, 03 Dec 2012 03:18:31 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-french-debate-on-gay-marriage.html#comment-14650 Jack, I'm sorry to have to tell you this but supporting the redefinition of marriage is incompatible with being a devout Catholic. In fact, i would advance the opinion that this is heresy and thus a person obstinately holding this view would be subject to automatic excommunication! The Church gives us Christ's teachings and He very clearly confirmed the biological definition of marriage which is also so rich in symbolism re our relationship with God. It is not germane to the question of marriage whether a person with same sex attraction is born that way or not. - Louise Sun, 02 Dec 2012 06:05:06 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-french-debate-on-gay-marriage.html#comment-14633 "I understand clearly that through love" "alone can we become pleasing to God,and" "my sole ambition is to acuire it" -ST Therese Low rated comments is not an issue for me,offending you or any one else does. I pray for all my brothers and sisters in Christ,please my point of view is mine and mine alone and I ask for your forgiveness if I have offended you. Jack - Jack,CT Sat, 01 Dec 2012 01:27:25 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-french-debate-on-gay-marriage.html#comment-14628 Achilles, Please accept my mutual respect for you.You have always written wonderful remarks,so please accept this as my "Bear hug",to you... Jack - Jack,CT Fri, 30 Nov 2012 20:43:34 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-french-debate-on-gay-marriage.html#comment-14622 Dear Jack, I have always found your comments to reflect a kind, compassionate and thoughtful person. My very last intention is to attack you. If I were to see you face to face I would surely bear hug you before we exchanged our first word. So please accept my apology for my language that may have caused offense. I intended to attack ideas I understand to be poorly formed- Jack, in looking over your comment again, and speaking solely of the ideas you expressed there, I only agree with your first point, that calling people morons does not advance ideas. But even here, the author didn’t call anyone a moron in the first place. He said “how long will we put up with being treated like morons…”This is a very different thing than calling people morons and asking them to accept ideas. Jack, look up the study by University of Texas sociologist Mark Regnerus on children of same sex couples. This alone illustrates pretty clearly the causal link between environment and unhealthy attitudes towards sexual activity. So far, every time I see a post by Other Joe, not only do I agree with it, I wish I could express things and truthfully and lovingly as he does. God bless you brother, Achilles - Achilles Fri, 30 Nov 2012 09:56:51 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-french-debate-on-gay-marriage.html#comment-14613 @Other Joe, I believe after reading your piece that we are on the same page. I do come away with more qestions than what was resolved. You said "Men and Woman are different",I think you are talking about the "Moral",differences. I totally respect you and your point of view and I feel we agree more than disagree. I agree with you that "we owe our gay friends and relatives love" God Bless you, Jack - Jack,CT Thu, 29 Nov 2012 16:52:08 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-french-debate-on-gay-marriage.html#comment-14612 Dear, Achilles, God Bless you as well my friend. I always enjoy your responses as they are honest and critical but show conviction,my problem is you use "Phrases of Cliche to attack me not my ideas, YOU SAID: 1)"grave misunderstanding of tolerance" you 2)"You encourage people in there disorders" 3)"Foolish for engaging gays" ETC,and the list goes on and on....... I try to find the purpose of such statements and I am at a loss.I respect if "ONe",disagrees with me but the "Attacks" are not warrented and show a blind idea, a lack of "Ammo" to counter my statements! Please "Link" me to your "Avalanche" of data on what you call "Unhealthy relationships",I to be honest saw an empty Attack,with little evidence to "Back your claims" I want to impress upon you is I enjoy your opinions but you will never,Never see me attacking others, and accuse them of "Drinking the coolaide" Understand you seemed to have woven your ideas underneath all the reteric,i get it. Any way my friend thanks for reading my point of view and I look forward to that "Avalanche" of Data! Jack - Jack,CT Thu, 29 Nov 2012 16:43:31 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-french-debate-on-gay-marriage.html#comment-14610 Nowadays, homosexuals argue that they were "born this way." But not too many years agon (1990s) one recalls Michel Foucault's position in his three volume "History of Sexuality" that homosexuality was invented in the 18th and 19th centuries. In fact, it is very unlikely that homosexual behavior is innate. Most research into human sexuality reveals it to be learned in some way. The major problem for the "born this way" approach is that it takes the category of ‘sexual identity’ itself as outside of historical change, which it clearly is not. The key figure in the attack upon identity as ahistorical is Michel Foucault, himself a practicing homosexual. In a series of scholarly researches, he set out to analyze the history of sexuality from ancient Greece to the modern era (History of Sexuality, 1980, 1985, 1986). Although the project was tragically cut short by his death in 1984, from complications from AIDS, Foucault articulated how profoundly understandings of sexuality can vary across time and space. Other than making for a snappy song title for ephemeral pop singers, the notion of "born this way" has little evidence. For a Thomist, Foucault's research provides evidence that an individual's social conditioning into a particular sexual identity can be distinguished from his or her behavior, and hence that moral reasoning about the latter is distinct from the former. As the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church states: "2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is objectively disordered, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God’s will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord’s Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. 2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection." Human sexuality can and does vary, but rather like other aspects of the human psyche. Some people are turned on by sadistic practices that for a Roman Catholic are clearly disordered and immoral. The moral status of an act is measured not by whether it may appear and/or feel good to some humans, but whether it is ordered to the final cause of the human being. What is that final cause? In a purely Aristotlean view, it is the life of virtue. For Thomists, it is the Beatific Vision (of which the life of virtue is part). Whatever our sexuality, Roman Catholics are called to the same life of virtue and Beatific Vision. Any sinful sexual activity, whether homosexual or heterosexual, is to be avoided. - Ib Thu, 29 Nov 2012 08:41:17 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-french-debate-on-gay-marriage.html#comment-14609 Jack, one of the most profound errors of "progressive" thinking is that of forced equivalency where none exists. Men and women are different. They just are. Same sex relationships are different. They just are. Talk to your gay friends about their actual experiences. Same sex sex is different. It just is. Most people in a secular society would agree to death benefits (a secular entitlement) for persons who have depended on each financially and emotionally in a largely exclusive relationship for something like the 50 years you describe. Very few, I would suspect, would be bothered by providing dependent couples legal standing. The problem is in trying to make what amounts to friendship with privileges the moral equivalent of the marriage of a man and woman with at least (even in these days) the potential for procreation. One can't do it without diminishing marriage. Sentimentality aside, society has vital (pun noted) interest in supporting the commitment of a man and a woman to each other and to any offspring that might result from the natural expression of their intimacy (emotional as well as physical). This is something that one either understands or does not, but an individual's understanding does not change the critical nature of what has been in all cultures and all eras an important, perhaps the most important, social function. Humans always (not sometimes) fall short of perfection in all relationships, but that is no excuse to render such relationships meaningless by generalizing the definition to the point of absurdity. We owe our gay friends and family members love, not collusion. - Other Joe Thu, 29 Nov 2012 08:11:49 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-french-debate-on-gay-marriage.html#comment-14607 Great article. Welcome to TCT! I hope they'll bring on more so I'm not forced to read leftist news when I run out of stories here and on FT. - Jacob r Thu, 29 Nov 2012 05:44:15 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-french-debate-on-gay-marriage.html#comment-14605 Jean, welcome to TCT. You've done a masterful job of framing the debate, which continues to rage in the U.S. and elsewhere on so-called "same-sex marriage." I believe it was Victor Hugo who said, "God is the conscience in us." Although I've been agnostic much of my life, I hold to some of the Catholic teachings I was born into; that marriage is solely and forever between a man and a woman and one of the seven sacraments ordained by Christ. My conscience informs me of right and wrong, not the ephemeral politics of the day. - Grump Thu, 29 Nov 2012 04:20:28 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-french-debate-on-gay-marriage.html#comment-14604 Jack, my dear Jack, you display a grave misunderstanding of tolerance. The Catholic Church knows that all are imbued by their creator with inalienable rights. The right to homosexual activity and acceptance of such behavior is not one of those rights any more than is the right to abuse drugs or alcohol. It is not a loving act to encourage people in their disorders. Jesus said to the adultress "your sins are forgiven." But don't forget he also said "go and sin no more." Asking someone to explain their own psychology is foolish. WE are capable of such immense self deceit. Look to Jesus to tell us who we are, why we are here and what our true ends are. Don't look to modern culture which has so badly perverted notions of virtues. ONe can not be a devout Catholic and dissent against Church Teaching and it is clear as a bell that homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered and that same sex attraction, although not a sin in itself, is a disorder. THere is no evidence that one is born that way, but an avelanche of evidence that such perversion is fostered by unhealthy relationsips and attempts to normalize what can not be normal. Don't drink the cool aid Jack, it does not help gay people. God bless you. - Achilles Thu, 29 Nov 2012 03:57:50 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-french-debate-on-gay-marriage.html#comment-14603 Mr Duchesne, Calling people "Morons",will never help advance ideas.I was just wandering where you got the data that those who 'Advocate" for gay rights "Agree" with "Euthannasia"? As a married man with a couple of kids and a 16 year marriage I can tell you that this is a hard topic,Howevever I really am a believer that a good Majority of "Gays" are born this way.Assume I am correct,should gays be allowed marriage then? I am a very devote Roman Catholic but i live in the year 2012! PEOPLE DO NOT CHOOSE TO BE DISCRIMINATED AGANST! I find that most people agree even if under the table that "Gays have all the "Legal" rights of the rest of us. I think education is important,and people who have had the courage to talk to a "gay",person about the 'biology and so called cause of being gay"will tell you that in most cases there "desires' were always "same sex",I understand this is a very hard topic but we need to "Accept" the fact that gay people are not goin away! I asked a gay friend to educate me and he is the one who told me that when he was "ten or eleven" he just saw others of the same sex "Atractive",without getting into the weeds,we need to start looking at sound Biology. What harm does it do to give a couple of 50 years the same death bennys as the rest of us? I suspect I am in the minority but Let gays Marry! You and I do need to agree,but respect all for who they are. I do not exspect alot of positive feedback,but I stand for equality for all. PS i Do Not beleve in Euthanasia!,still waiting for the data on that arguement..........lol. Any way I am proof a Catholic who counts on Christ and the Saints can also be "TOLERANT" of others. Thanks for the article however predicable it may be. Jack - Jack,CT Thu, 29 Nov 2012 02:49:33 +0100