Comments for The Strange Clericalism of Women’s Ordination at http://www.thecatholicthing.org , comment 1 to 47 out of 20 comments http://www.thecatholicthing.org Tue, 21 May 2013 10:36:46 +0100 FeedCreator 1.7.3 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-strange-clericalism-of-womens-ordination.html#comment-15437 Actually, Catherine of Siena was quite unhappy with the degree of influence the laity and religious had on the Church. Would you be in favor of the restoration of the female Deaconate? How about opening the College of Cardinals, again, to women and the laity? How about the recognition/establishment of higher-level roles for women (and women only) in the Church? Why isn't there a female, marian religious who works directly with the Pope in an official (as opposed to the unofficial advisers around now) capacity. Part of Her _____'s job would specifically include looking out for the welfare and civil rights of women and girls. How about ANYTHING to keep the Vatican from remaining an unhealthy, inhuman, boys-only clubhouse? - Kell Brigan Sat, 19 Jan 2013 19:07:32 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-strange-clericalism-of-womens-ordination.html#comment-14891 Ib, Respectfully, your lengthy lesson in rhetoric and logic completely skirts the question, asked in good faith. - Diego Tue, 11 Dec 2012 10:33:33 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-strange-clericalism-of-womens-ordination.html#comment-14804 The reason the Protestants want to Protestantize the Roman Catholic Church is the lust for Earthly power. Examples? How many countries have formal diplomatic relations with, say, the Anglican Church? the Jewish Church? Buddhists? Anyone? Bueller? How many have their own military? Huh? How many religious leaders can get an audience with a head of state that is more than a photo op? Only the Roman Catholic Church and the Holy Father have that respect. Giving the heretics what they would want would destroy that respect leaving them with ashes. Do they ever learn? - Lamp of Truth Fri, 07 Dec 2012 17:33:06 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-strange-clericalism-of-womens-ordination.html#comment-14803 Jesus could have ordained St. Mary Magdalen if He intended women to be priests. In the First Century, only Judaism was limited to only male priests. Other religions had priestesses. Why did Jesus not ordain women? We don't know. St. Mary Magdalen was the first to see the resurrected Jesus, and carried the news to the Eleven. Thus she is sometimes called "the apostle to the Apostles". What gives 21st Century Christians the right to change something that Jesus established? TeaPot562 - TeaPot562 Fri, 07 Dec 2012 14:58:44 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-strange-clericalism-of-womens-ordination.html#comment-14802 @Diego The objection raised by your interlocutor is an old canard about the Sacrament of Orders that has been floating around since the mid-seventies. It has been answered in lengthy detail many times. Prof. Esolen gamely tilts at it anew, but because of the historical complexity of how the mission to the Gentiles arose from the original mtission of Jesus, he can only give a truncated answer in a comment. Read the two books I referenced earlier in this comment list and you will have some details on why this objection has little traction theologically. One of the reasons this old canard doesn't die is because of the rhetorical form of its argument. It seems to find a parallel between two historical realities, assert that they are equal in all relevant ways, and then invoke an Aristotelian notion of justice to demand equal treatment. Recall that Aristotle defined justice as treating equals as equal and unequals as unequal. The logical form of the argument is like so, Premises: Event A happened Event B did not happen Event A and Event B are equals Conclusion: By Aristotle's Principle of Justice, Event A and Event B should be treated as equals. The critical piece of the argument is in showing the third premise. Are Event A and Event B equal in all relevant ways? In every case but one known to me, there is no rigorous attempt by proponents of changing the Roman Catholic Church's Sacrament of Orders to establish the third premise. Instead it is simply assumed to be true on the basis of Modernity's capitalist-market approach to equality among men and women workers. That a modernist ideology of capital markets (which requires wage workers be equal for efficiency reasons), might not apply to the Divine guidance of the Holy Spirit in theological truth for over more than two millennium throughout the history of the Roman Catholic Church, makes an unbeatable riposte to the old canard. Unfortunately, it requires some sophistication to understand this riposte, as it takes some sophistication to understand theological matters in general. And most people won't take the time to study the Church's positions on anything these days. Most academic theologians are a different case. They play obtuse for professional reasons. They "gotta protect their phoney-baloney jobs," to quote Mel Brooks in Blazing Saddles. - Ib Fri, 07 Dec 2012 14:15:05 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-strange-clericalism-of-womens-ordination.html#comment-14800 Those who advocate women's ordination are guilty of a deeper inconsistency. As stated above, the NCR believes that the priesthood is primarily about power, and that ordaining women will distribute that power more equally within the Church. However, ths claim denies one of the most vital powers granted by Christ to the hierarchy: magisterial authority. The priesthood that those who favor women's ordination speak of isn't the priesthood of Jesus Christ. It is a watered-down novelty ironically bereft of authority. - Brian Fri, 07 Dec 2012 11:15:00 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-strange-clericalism-of-womens-ordination.html#comment-14799 Dear IB, Again thank you for your gracious comments. I, for my part, have no animosity towards Manfred, to the contrary, my heart goes out to him. I am sure I come off worse than I intend, my ability to articulate is still outweighed by old habits of flawed thinking. A few years ago I learned about the traditional movement and I was very attracted to it. I read open letter to Catholics by Lafebre and it started frantic debate I was not capable of resolving. I am still trying to sort out the final details. I love many things about the traddies though I understand the fatal flaws now. Manfred will not return my comments and I don’t blame him, we are not in the same league, he being so seasoned and me being so green, I can imagine my comments pester him. But I thank you for trying to clarify in his stead. It has been wonderful to visit this forum everyday and contemplate its themes. I am edified by many who post here, and provoked by others. TCT is a great gift and some of the writers like Schall and Esolen are especially enriching. I hope Manfred does not take too much offense at my inquisitive prodding- There is so much I don't exactly understand. Though I am not armed like him, I am just as eager to see God face to face. As Msgr. Ronald Knox said “we are here to colonize heaven, not make things better on earth.” IB, you are a kind and generous soul, thanks again! Anabasis indeed brother, I have nowhere to go but up! Achilles - Achilles Fri, 07 Dec 2012 10:39:36 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-strange-clericalism-of-womens-ordination.html#comment-14798 So many errors are revieled in the photo besides the heritics. The use of crystal instead of proper chalices, a round "card table" for an alter, alter linens with printed flower patterns...all signs of wrongness. And yes, the "EXIT" sign with the little arrow pointing to the right...toward the cross...truly the Holy Spirit reminding us to return to Christ and His Church. - Paul Fri, 07 Dec 2012 10:02:31 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-strange-clericalism-of-womens-ordination.html#comment-14796 @achilles & Manfred First of all let me say that I did not intend to cause any animosity by my comments. So I apologize if they caused anger as a response. They were merely meant to explore why I thought Manfred's curt comments had a positive pastoral turn with good consequences for the salvation of souls. I did not mean to detract from Achilles (he has the invincible skin after all), but to provide a way of looking at Manfred's comments that would show their positive dimension. Indeed, we need to hear more form the both of you! About 20 years ago I was talking with His Eminence Cardinal Stafford and said much the same to him about the need for clarity and the perniciousness of confusion in the Roman Catholic Church. We both had tremendous hopes. For the Papacy of John Paul II, hopes that for the most part were confirmed by the Pope's courageous acts and writings. But I was a naive young cleric at the time and thought that in the wake of the Fall of the Berlin Wall and the discrediting of Communism in Europe and Russia, there had been a turn in human events (and possibily hearts) and now we could foresee a return to faithful Roman Catholicism. But this didn't happen. What I had thought were mere changeable customs and reformable approaches turned out to be anchored deeply in the ruined, sinful nature of humanity. There can be no human "turn of events" that heals this fatal injury. Only God's divine action in the second person of the Trinity heals this, and then only completely in the fullness of time. NOT in the here and now. So in some ways what we are doing in the here and now is always a rear-guard action. We fail and fail again, but we never stop. It's okay that we are only able to mount an anabasis (cf. Xenophon; this comments for you Achilles), because we know that the decisive contest has already been won and God is waiting for us on the further shore with the victory in hand. So God be with you both and bless your families as they fight the good fight here on this earth. Take heart from the courage of Jesus as he faced the Cross - Ib Fri, 07 Dec 2012 09:11:27 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-strange-clericalism-of-womens-ordination.html#comment-14795 Mr. Esolen, thanks for your reply. I don't think the account of Cornelius answers my question. I did some research last night and read Ordinatio Sacerdotalis. The document references the Apostles as being the basis for the priesthood and Cornelius was not an Apostle. His conversion is not about the priesthood but about opening the gates of Christianity to Gentiles. - Diego Fri, 07 Dec 2012 08:23:57 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-strange-clericalism-of-womens-ordination.html#comment-14785 IB, Manfred explains the following: "The tares/chaff cannot wait for the end of the world-they are separating themselves now. This removes their destructive influence on the wheat which is often weak and can be led astray." I don't know IB, the grace of God or the wisdom of Manfred? On the surface, most of Manfred's complaints are obvious, but his understanding of cause and effect is hard to defend. I am a new Catholic. My parish is very liberal. My wife and I went through catechist training poisoned by modernism, we went to a congress with thousands of diocesan teachers and they peached conscience, contraception, liberation theology, historical critical method amongst other heresies. I wrote a 3 page letter to my bishop. My situation cannot be unique, as Manfred often laments. Also I am one of 2 parents who would not allow my 12 year old to attend a pre-sex ed orientation. This is how it is. What are we to do? Where are we to go? Does God really want us to separate ourselves from “chaff”? Or are we to scream Orthodoxy from the rooftops? I really don’t know what to think on this one IB. Certainly there are many who think they are saved while clinging to heresy. This is a difficult thing. I prefer the hard words of St. Alphonsus, or St. Francis de Sales, or St. John Vianney, or the Imitation of Christ, they make much more soul sense than the words of Manfred. - Achilles Fri, 07 Dec 2012 04:12:51 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-strange-clericalism-of-womens-ordination.html#comment-14784 See the exit sign over the Priest's left hand shoulder in the articles photo. Perfectly placed there by the Holy Spirit! - Patrick Fri, 07 Dec 2012 02:51:41 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-strange-clericalism-of-womens-ordination.html#comment-14776 Diego: Yes; he expressly commanded that the disciples go forth and baptize all nations. He explicitly revealed to Peter that the Holy Spirit must be conferred upon Cornelius. The early Church clearly understood from the person and the mission of Jesus that the Gentiles were, so to speak, no longer Gentiles, but that they too were grafted upon the new stock. But it is clear to anybody with eyes that a man is not a woman and a woman is not a man. There the difference is not cultural but biological and ontological. Jesus could easily have commanded His followers to raise women to the status of presbyters. He did not. What would people have done to Him if He had -- reject Him? Crucify Him? The dodge that the indifferentists have is then to demean Saint Paul, but that won't fly. Paul was no misogynist; this is clear from the close relations he had with many Christian women. But then there's also Saint Peter and his letters. The indifferentists pattern the Church after the artificial thing, the modern democratic or post-democratic state, valuing individual autonomy and almost limitless choice, without regard to the common good. The true Church, by contrast, is patterned after a natural thing, the family, and is not patterned but is revealed indeed to be a body, the mystical body of Christ. And a body by its very nature cannot be equalitarian or indifferentist; every part is FOR every other part and for the whole. In all these discussions about WO, I never hear the other side suggest that WO will conquer the world for Christ. The sneaky little secret is that they don't want to do that, either. If I say, "These others over here are doing what you're doing, and they have lost all the young men, and are fast losing the young women too, and are culturally irrelevant," they shrug. They don't care. We've already ingested too much of the poison. Jesus calls only men to a particular kind of humbling; that is His prerogative. I have not been called to that. These women are not saying, "It's not fair for you alone to be shouldering that heavy burden, let us help!" That I could understand; but then if they were denied, they'd try most cheerfully to do what they could to lighten the load of the priests. Instead they aggravate them with acts of sabotage and disobedience. - Tony Esolen Thu, 06 Dec 2012 17:24:31 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-strange-clericalism-of-womens-ordination.html#comment-14775 That "EXIT" sign in the photo, fits the picture so much, doesn't it??!! - joaco Thu, 06 Dec 2012 16:37:39 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-strange-clericalism-of-womens-ordination.html#comment-14774 Frank, you asked for an explanation of why a woman would want to be a priest. Well, first of all, the level of "work" is a breeze compared to that of a mother/wife--especially one who also works at a "real" job. But, that aside, I will preface this with the fact that I support the Catholic Church's position on male-only ordination; I understand the theology, the politics, and the tradition. But I will also tell you that if women could have been ordained when I was in my 20s, I might well have gone to a seminary. As it is, I have been happily and productively married for 41 years, have wonderful children, sons-in-law, and grandchildren, have had a wonderful and rewarding career, and believe that there are many palpable reasons why God chose me for this role in life. Remember, as we hear at every ordination, God calls and chooses; it is not we who choose but rather we who answer God's call. - Elizabeth Thu, 06 Dec 2012 16:11:11 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-strange-clericalism-of-womens-ordination.html#comment-14773 Those poor, sad women, sacrificing Truth for a Fisher-Price Play Church. May God have mercy on us all. - Mack Thu, 06 Dec 2012 12:49:27 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-strange-clericalism-of-womens-ordination.html#comment-14772 Thanks to the commenters for their comments on my comment today and in the past. To understand Manfred's position(s) one must understand that whenever he would appear in person to question his childrens' "catholic" textbooks (with a bishop!), a liturgy, a course on human sexuality which would include perversions which his 8th grade daughter was going to be forced to take (the compromise was the course was held at the very end of the school year so my daughter just never appeared in school the last two days-she graduated first in her class, BTW), this comment ALWAYS followed: Manfred, you are the only parent,(parishioner, club member, etc.) who has objected to this (item). No one else has! The "catholic" high school my children attended is closing due to lack of students, the Christian Brothers and the Sisters are gone. My comment today comes from the parable of the wheat and the tares. At the harvest (the end of the world) the wheat (those saved) would be brought into the landlord's barns (Heaven), while the tares/chaff would be bound into bundles and cast into the fire(Hell). The tares/chaff cannot wait for the end of the world-they are separating themselves now. This removes their destructive influence on the wheat which is often weak and can be led astray. Thank you for your patience with me. - Manfred Thu, 06 Dec 2012 12:48:18 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-strange-clericalism-of-womens-ordination.html#comment-14770 I was recently debating this issue with somebody who said "Jesus only had Jewish males as his Apostles even though he regularly ministered to Gentiles and could have easily invited one or more to the Upper Room. Yet the early Church believed it had the authority to break with Jesus' example and ordain Gentiles." I was at a loss how to respond. Any suggestions? - Diego Thu, 06 Dec 2012 12:17:05 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-strange-clericalism-of-womens-ordination.html#comment-14769 Mother Angelica understood implicitly what women's ordination was about. "It's about power." Hence the pose of loyalty to the Catholic Church by feminists. By the way, has anyone ever had a problem finding a parking space outside an Episcopal Church lately? Better to reign over the few than serve the many. - Graham Combs Thu, 06 Dec 2012 11:04:09 +0100 http://www.thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/the-strange-clericalism-of-womens-ordination.html#comment-14768 Thank you IB for the kind and insightful words. I hope that you are right about your interpretations of Manfred’s words, I would very much like that to be the case. However, there is a similar danger of pride and self-deceit amongst the traddies. There is a serious need for a recovery of words that say what things truly are and the truth is hard in these very dark times. Certainly salvation requires our full assent to the complete Doctrine and Dogma of Mother Church. If I have unjustly maligned Manfred I humbly beg apology. However, I am not totally convinced of Manfred’s kookylessness. I always enjoy reading your comments IB and only rarely do I find myself in disagreement. Thank you again for some much needed guidance. Pax Christi tecum, Achilles - Achilles Thu, 06 Dec 2012 10:28:30 +0100